This rocks/sucks and this is why

Trollheart · 08-09-2013, 05:32 PM

That's the important bit. You can choose an album, band, artiste, genre, song, anything music related and say you love or hate it but you HAVE to give a reasoned, coherent argument why you think that. Others are free to support or challenge your contentions, and you should try to engage them in mature debate, see perhaps if your view can be changed, should be changed, or if you, like me, are always right.

Seriously, it's not as simple as saying "Muse's latest album is crap" or "Genesis are rubbish" (shut up, Urban!)

or even "Free jazz is the best music in the world". You have to make a good case for your position.

I'm going to leave the floor for others for now, though as you'll no doubt be unsurprised to hear, I have some ideas of my own. However, no point in me leading every thread I make, so I'll hold back for now, and hopefully someone will grasp the nettle...

Urban Hat€monger ? · 08-09-2013, 06:07 PM

I did actually get the Peter Gabriel era Genesis stuff to see if my mind could be changed and to put my Phil Collins hatred aside for a moment.
I've not got around to listening to it yet though.

Trollheart · 08-09-2013, 07:58 PM

There's a world of difference, but Collins is still there of course. He comes more to the fore in later albums even with Gabriel still around. As I'm sure you know, it's the likes of "Trespass", "Foxtrot", "Nursery cryme" and "The Lamb" you need to listen to. You may still hate Genesis --- the actual style of music didn't change that radically under Collins, at least at first --- but it would give you a different view of them than the somewhat poppy/mainstream outfit they ended up becoming.

Mind you, "And then there were three" I still regard as a great album, but then, I don't hate Collins, or at least I didn't till the debacle that was "Abacab" assaulted my ears....

Neapolitan · 08-09-2013, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

There's a world of difference, but Collins is still there of course. He comes more to the fore in later albums even with Gabriel still around. As I'm sure you know, it's the likes of "Trespass", "Foxtrot", "Nursery cryme" and "The Lamb" you need to listen to. You may still hate Genesis --- the actual style of music didn't change that radically under Collins, at least at first --- but it would give you a different view of them than the somewhat poppy/mainstream outfit they ended up becoming.

Mind you, "And then there were three" I still regard as a great album, but then, I don't hate Collins, or at least I didn't till the debacle that was "Abacab" assaulted my ears....

I like Genesis from the first to last album, not that all are equal. I like Abacab, I don't think it was a total waste. I think it rocks, Tony Banks did some decent keyboard work on that album. We Can't Dance prob like the least fave and would rather list to From Genesis to Revelation and Calling All Stations than that one.

I don't think any one should hold out listening to early PG era Genesis because of Phil's later work in the band. Almost two different bands really - musically and lyrically. It's kinda like saying I don't listen to The Jam because of The Style Council.

Trollheart · 08-10-2013, 06:22 AM

I think I can pick out maybe three songs on Abacab I like or at least don't hate ("Dodo/Lurker", "Me and Sarah Jane" and "Like it or not") whereas there's nothing on "We can't dance" I don't like, so I would consider it a far superior album to "Abacrap" personally. Also, "Abacrap" was followed by the self-titled, which though it has "Illegal alien" (

) is a really decent album I feel.

I also love GtR: I think it's almost like their "Piper at the gates of dawn" or Supertramp's debut; shows a totally different side to the band with hints of what was to come in "Trespass".

Screen13 · 08-11-2013, 09:43 AM

I liked Bank's synths on Abacab which is half a good album in my view. At it's best, the cold feeling on most of the songs may not have been a major success, but in places it worked well and gave that era a more defining sound, although by invisible Touch it was turned out to be the hint of the over-slickness that over powered their sound ready for Beer Commercials and such. Phil's singing for a second album in a row was finding confidence in its own voice instead of trying to live up to Peter Gabriel on the A Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering, both fine albums but sadly lacking after the classic Gabriel / Prog era, although you can say the far better Duke was the first place that it developed. After "Dodo/Lurker", Abacab really went south but there were some good songs resulting in an album that sounded like it was trying to find a sound for the 80's featuring the work of a great keyboardist who knew where to take the music plus having the Earth Wind and Fire horns on "No Reply At All" being a nice touch in a way that they added to Phil's "I Missed Again". S/T was a major refinement except for that damn "Illegal Alien" song which should have been thrown off right away (I still have memories of the video being played a hell of a lot on video shows then...it was not funny at all and was the nadir of their collective video work) although it gets points for "Mama" alone, with a couple of more thrown in for being a daring choice for a lead off single in a time that was defined by more mainstream stuff like "That's All" although you still have "Home by the Sea" to remind you about the band with more ambition than that.

I think that with the exception of "Land of Confusion", invisible Touch seriously marks down what was not likeable about 80's Genesis - the artistic debacle of the band in my view (I still need to hear Calling All Stations, though...). It sounded by the numbers, ready made for the MOR stations, although with the epic "Domino" which at least shows a bit of ambition with the ready-whip sound. The hits from that album are the ones that get played too much, but kept the bank accounts flowing. "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight"...oh no!!!

Thankfully, there was one last good single in "No Son of Mine" after that, but after Phil's Mid 80's defining third solo, and his first seriously soulless album that catered to the MOR, you can say that by '87, it was not really safe to admit to a music loving friend that you liked Genesis even with the classic Gabriel albums unless you have the albums to prove it with and an open mind to talk to in the US where they did not even crack the top half of the charts until "Follow You, Follow Me".

Still, let me try to add on something. I have a friend who was skeptical about my love of the Gabriel era when I suggested to him to try Selling England by the Pound, the best way to hear if the era fits (The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway might be too heavy of a journey for a first timer). Keep in mind that The US is where hardly anyone but serious music fans know how great the early albums are (OK, from Trespass on...although I have a small interest in the first album just for Peter's start as a writer) and Genesis is known through the housewife hits and where the common music listener only knows Peter's music through the So era. We were working at a place that had a radio station set to where the Invisible Touch stuff was playing a lot. It seriously worked!

misspoptart · 08-14-2013, 06:06 AM

I mean, I have said it time and time again on this board and everywhere else I go, but I think Dave Matthews rocks. I know how much people hate him and I get your reasons why. Yeah, his songs often fall into a little-known genre I like to call "pussy college rock lite," but there are a couple points I think people are quick to overlook.

1. Lyrics.
If you think Dave's lyrics are "self-centered," "trying to hard," "preachy," or "cliché," you are entitled to that opinion and so what, fine. But if you listen and try to understand without prejudice or a pre-conceived notion that they suck, say, as if you were a small child just hearing and trying to make sense of it all...maybe you would see where I'm coming from. The way Dave describes stuff...every day events or historical events or people in general...is surreal and natural and genius all at the same time. Give him a chance. Maybe just read them without listening to the song. "Funny the Way it Is," "Dancing Nancies," "Spoon," and "#41" really evidence this point.

2. Uniqueness.
Dave is mad unique. I don't care if you think he's a retard or his personality irks you; if you look beyond that -- watch him live a few times, or listen to some interviews -- you will find a man who is almost limitless in enthusiasm and just says and does the oddest, quirkiest things. It's charming, but it also ROCKS. People are quick to assume that because some of the songs sound a bit wishy-washy he is just some attention-starved hippie tool. Dude, he's like 50, and he still has a twinkle in his eye and the energy of a 5-year old. I love him to death. There is no one like him and no way to compare him or his music style to anyone, really. You could watch this as proof, but I really think this point also speaks for itself. HIS STAGE PRESENCE!!! ...rocks.

I could go on about this for hours, but I just needed to get it out of my system!

Trollheart · 08-14-2013, 06:30 AM

A guy in work used to rave about DMB but I never took the time to listen. I must admit I wasn't aware he was so villified, but I must lend him an ear soon, see what all the fuss is about. I've nothing against him personally; is this some form of elitism, where people feel they have to criticise anything that isn't original enough?

Also, thanks for keeping my thread alive, Miss P!
TH

misspoptart · 08-16-2013, 03:36 AM

You are so welcome, TH. This was a great idea and I hope other people join in. I'll definitely be posting a negative (so-and-so sucks) one soon.

musicchamberdubai · 08-16-2013, 06:25 AM

I would also like to see the discussions here, but I am sorry to say that I do not criticize any music as I am big music lover and is associated with music school and training as well in Dubai.

08-09-2013, 05:32 PM	#1 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,994	This rocks/sucks and this is why That's the important bit. You can choose an album, band, artiste, genre, song, anything music related and say you love or hate it but you HAVE to give a reasoned, coherent argument why you think that. Others are free to support or challenge your contentions, and you should try to engage them in mature debate, see perhaps if your view can be changed, should be changed, or if you, like me, are always right. Seriously, it's not as simple as saying "Muse's latest album is crap" or "Genesis are rubbish" (shut up, Urban!) or even "Free jazz is the best music in the world". You have to make a good case for your position. I'm going to leave the floor for others for now, though as you'll no doubt be unsurprised to hear, I have some ideas of my own. However, no point in me leading every thread I make, so I'll hold back for now, and hopefully someone will grasp the nettle... __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

08-09-2013, 06:07 PM	#2 (permalink)
Urban Hat€monger ? The Sexual Intellectual Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Somewhere cooler than you Posts: 18,605	I did actually get the Peter Gabriel era Genesis stuff to see if my mind could be changed and to put my Phil Collins hatred aside for a moment. I've not got around to listening to it yet though. __________________ Urb's RYM Stuff Most people sell their soul to the devil, but the devil sells his soul to Nick Cave.

08-09-2013, 07:58 PM	#3 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,994	There's a world of difference, but Collins is still there of course. He comes more to the fore in later albums even with Gabriel still around. As I'm sure you know, it's the likes of "Trespass", "Foxtrot", "Nursery cryme" and "The Lamb" you need to listen to. You may still hate Genesis --- the actual style of music didn't change that radically under Collins, at least at first --- but it would give you a different view of them than the somewhat poppy/mainstream outfit they ended up becoming. Mind you, "And then there were three" I still regard as a great album, but then, I don't hate Collins, or at least I didn't till the debacle that was "Abacab" assaulted my ears.... __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

08-10-2013, 06:22 AM	#5 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,994	I think I can pick out maybe three songs on Abacab I like or at least don't hate ("Dodo/Lurker", "Me and Sarah Jane" and "Like it or not") whereas there's nothing on "We can't dance" I don't like, so I would consider it a far superior album to "Abacrap" personally. Also, "Abacrap" was followed by the self-titled, which though it has "Illegal alien" () is a really decent album I feel. I also love GtR: I think it's almost like their "Piper at the gates of dawn" or Supertramp's debut; shows a totally different side to the band with hints of what was to come in "Trespass". __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

08-11-2013, 09:43 AM	#6 (permalink)
Screen13 Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,388	I liked Bank's synths on Abacab which is half a good album in my view. At it's best, the cold feeling on most of the songs may not have been a major success, but in places it worked well and gave that era a more defining sound, although by invisible Touch it was turned out to be the hint of the over-slickness that over powered their sound ready for Beer Commercials and such. Phil's singing for a second album in a row was finding confidence in its own voice instead of trying to live up to Peter Gabriel on the A Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering, both fine albums but sadly lacking after the classic Gabriel / Prog era, although you can say the far better Duke was the first place that it developed. After "Dodo/Lurker", Abacab really went south but there were some good songs resulting in an album that sounded like it was trying to find a sound for the 80's featuring the work of a great keyboardist who knew where to take the music plus having the Earth Wind and Fire horns on "No Reply At All" being a nice touch in a way that they added to Phil's "I Missed Again". S/T was a major refinement except for that damn "Illegal Alien" song which should have been thrown off right away (I still have memories of the video being played a hell of a lot on video shows then...it was not funny at all and was the nadir of their collective video work) although it gets points for "Mama" alone, with a couple of more thrown in for being a daring choice for a lead off single in a time that was defined by more mainstream stuff like "That's All" although you still have "Home by the Sea" to remind you about the band with more ambition than that. I think that with the exception of "Land of Confusion", invisible Touch seriously marks down what was not likeable about 80's Genesis - the artistic debacle of the band in my view (I still need to hear Calling All Stations, though...). It sounded by the numbers, ready made for the MOR stations, although with the epic "Domino" which at least shows a bit of ambition with the ready-whip sound. The hits from that album are the ones that get played too much, but kept the bank accounts flowing. "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight"...oh no!!! Thankfully, there was one last good single in "No Son of Mine" after that, but after Phil's Mid 80's defining third solo, and his first seriously soulless album that catered to the MOR, you can say that by '87, it was not really safe to admit to a music loving friend that you liked Genesis even with the classic Gabriel albums unless you have the albums to prove it with and an open mind to talk to in the US where they did not even crack the top half of the charts until "Follow You, Follow Me". Still, let me try to add on something. I have a friend who was skeptical about my love of the Gabriel era when I suggested to him to try Selling England by the Pound, the best way to hear if the era fits (The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway might be too heavy of a journey for a first timer). Keep in mind that The US is where hardly anyone but serious music fans know how great the early albums are (OK, from Trespass on...although I have a small interest in the first album just for Peter's start as a writer) and Genesis is known through the housewife hits and where the common music listener only knows Peter's music through the So era. We were working at a place that had a radio station set to where the Invisible Touch stuff was playing a lot. It seriously worked! Last edited by Screen13; 08-11-2013 at 10:17 AM.

08-14-2013, 06:06 AM	#7 (permalink)
misspoptart gimme gimme Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: istanbul Posts: 897	I mean, I have said it time and time again on this board and everywhere else I go, but I think Dave Matthews rocks. I know how much people hate him and I get your reasons why. Yeah, his songs often fall into a little-known genre I like to call "pussy college rock lite," but there are a couple points I think people are quick to overlook. 1. Lyrics. If you think Dave's lyrics are "self-centered," "trying to hard," "preachy," or "cliché," you are entitled to that opinion and so what, fine. But if you listen and try to understand without prejudice or a pre-conceived notion that they suck, say, as if you were a small child just hearing and trying to make sense of it all...maybe you would see where I'm coming from. The way Dave describes stuff...every day events or historical events or people in general...is surreal and natural and genius all at the same time. Give him a chance. Maybe just read them without listening to the song. "Funny the Way it Is," "Dancing Nancies," "Spoon," and "#41" really evidence this point. 2. Uniqueness. Dave is mad unique. I don't care if you think he's a retard or his personality irks you; if you look beyond that -- watch him live a few times, or listen to some interviews -- you will find a man who is almost limitless in enthusiasm and just says and does the oddest, quirkiest things. It's charming, but it also ROCKS. People are quick to assume that because some of the songs sound a bit wishy-washy he is just some attention-starved hippie tool. Dude, he's like 50, and he still has a twinkle in his eye and the energy of a 5-year old. I love him to death. There is no one like him and no way to compare him or his music style to anyone, really. You could watch this as proof, but I really think this point also speaks for itself. HIS STAGE PRESENCE!!! ...rocks. I could go on about this for hours, but I just needed to get it out of my system! Last edited by misspoptart; 08-16-2013 at 03:35 AM.

08-14-2013, 06:30 AM	#8 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,994	A guy in work used to rave about DMB but I never took the time to listen. I must admit I wasn't aware he was so villified, but I must lend him an ear soon, see what all the fuss is about. I've nothing against him personally; is this some form of elitism, where people feel they have to criticise anything that isn't original enough? Also, thanks for keeping my thread alive, Miss P! TH __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

08-16-2013, 03:36 AM	#9 (permalink)
misspoptart gimme gimme Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: istanbul Posts: 897	You are so welcome, TH. This was a great idea and I hope other people join in. I'll definitely be posting a negative (so-and-so sucks) one soon.

08-16-2013, 06:25 AM	#10 (permalink)
musicchamberdubai Groupie Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 8	I would also like to see the discussions here, but I am sorry to say that I do not criticize any music as I am big music lover and is associated with music school and training as well in Dubai.