Lyrics: Fact or Fiction ?

Lisnaholic · 06-02-2013, 08:43 AM

It seems so simple in the world of books; every library or bookshop is clearly divided into Fiction and Non-Fiction sections and whatever book you pick up, you know within minutes which category it falls into.

Why aren´t songs classified the same way? Something to do with the same songs being sung by various people, I suppose, and vocal styles that are or aren´t convincing.

Examples of unconvincing fictions:
The other day I heard Abba singing about, "...the stars were shining bright for you and me, for liberty, Fernando," as if Abba saw themselves as freedom fighters, ranked up there with Ché Guevarra and Nelson Mandela - a notion which I find pretty hard to swallow.
Another example is Roy Buchanan, who plays a mean guitar, but when he sings, "I´m evil" he sounds about as menacing as a teletubby.

Convincing fictions:
Did Bob Dylan actually marry Isis on the Fifth of May? I don´t care because I´ve already bought into all the metaphorical self-mythologizing about his life. Same goes for Springsteen; without knowing the details, you can imagine that he´s singing from experience, even if he didn´t have a brother who died at Khesan.

Fact:
Not so many examples of this. There´s "The Ballad of John and Yoko" and, er ...

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else thinks about songs in these terms, or just wants an excuse to grumble or enthuse about lyrics.

**Goofle** · 06-02-2013, 08:51 AM

I don't care if lyrics are fact or fiction so long as they sound pretty cool.

Stephen · 06-02-2013, 09:01 AM

I don't know I guess when it comes to lyrics it doesn't matter if they are factual or not. If a song has an interesting narrative I guess knowing it is describing factual events adds another level of interest but ultimately the quality of the writing is more important than the source of inspiration.

djchameleon · 06-02-2013, 09:08 AM

I feel like it's up to the listener to decide whether they feel convinced enough by the lyrics that the singer is belting out or not.

Popular Example - NIN - Hurt versus Johnny Cash's version of Hurt. You could really feel the pain in Johnny's voice during his version but not so much from Trent.

ZiggyStardust · 06-02-2013, 11:34 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le727fRZHpA

I always like this one (it's a great ballad from a poem) as it's almost a history recital.

Lisnaholic · 06-02-2013, 05:05 PM

^ Yes, a story in a song has a lot of appeal, and your one, clocking in at over eight minutes is quite an acheivement. It sounds like Alfred Noyes, along with many writers of the Victorian-Edwardian era had a taste for death and melodrama. Especially in the early part of that period, ballads were often written about famous true murder cases. Here´s one example with some nice old photos to go with:-

But speaking in general, I agree with what the other posters are saying - it´s all about the singer´s delivery, and what they can convince us of. For instance, Witney Houston´s "I will always love you" sounds much more heartfelt to me than the Dolly Parton original, although it was presumably DP who actually felt sad enough to write the song in the first place.

So I suppose that singing has more to do with acting than fact or fiction - which of course your avatar guy, David Bowie, realized from the start of his glittering career.

Who are the other stars and failures of singer-as-actor, I wonder ?

Stephen · 06-02-2013, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

So I suppose that singing has more to do with acting than fact or fiction

It really does. Especially when you consider the gulf between many singers' stage persona and their off stage personalities.

I guess traditionally music was a way of passing down knowledge. I wonder if traveling minstrels ever had the sort of cult status afforded artists today?

Necromancer · 06-02-2013, 09:23 PM

A lot of lyrics during the late 60s and into the early 70s were often a form of social commentary. Like Marvin Gaye's Whats Going On and Inner City Blues for example. These particular songs (and numerous others by various artist) resonated either political, social, or economic themes.

This (protest) song dealt with the shooting and killing of four college students at Kent State University in 1970.

Written and composed by Neil Young.

Lisnaholic · 06-04-2013, 11:33 AM

^ Good call, Necromancer ! Reminded me of two other songs of the same era, although they are only celebrating music festivals rather than "hard news": Woodstock and Monterey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

I wonder if traveling minstrels ever had the sort of cult status afforded artists today?

Yeah, I wonder too; they may not´ve been signing t-shirts after their concerts, but I bet they found a groupie of two in the taverns ...

And this guy built up such a reputation for himself that he´s still remembered 800 years down the line:-

Quote:

Blondel de Nesle was a French trouvère.

The name 'Blondel de Nesle' is attached to twenty-four or twenty-five courtly songs. He was identified as Jean II of Nesle (near Amiens), who was nicknamed 'Blondel' for his long blond hair. He married at the time of his father's death in 1202, and that same year, went on the Fourth Crusade... which may explain the subsequent legend linking him with Richard I of England.

If the works are correctly identified and dated, he was a significant influence on his European contemporaries, who made much use of his melodies. (The melody of "L'amours dont sui espris" is used in Carmina Burana, for the song "Procurans Odium"). His works are fairly conventional, and several have been recorded in modern times.

(Thank you, wikipedia.)

sidewinder · 06-04-2013, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goofle11

I don't care if lyrics are fact or fiction so long as they sound pretty cool.

This is the right answer.

06-02-2013, 08:43 AM	#1 (permalink)
Lisnaholic ...here to hear... Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: He lives on Love Street Posts: 4,444	Lyrics: Fact or Fiction ? It seems so simple in the world of books; every library or bookshop is clearly divided into Fiction and Non-Fiction sections and whatever book you pick up, you know within minutes which category it falls into. Why aren´t songs classified the same way? Something to do with the same songs being sung by various people, I suppose, and vocal styles that are or aren´t convincing. Examples of unconvincing fictions: The other day I heard Abba singing about, "...the stars were shining bright for you and me, for liberty, Fernando," as if Abba saw themselves as freedom fighters, ranked up there with Ché Guevarra and Nelson Mandela - a notion which I find pretty hard to swallow. Another example is Roy Buchanan, who plays a mean guitar, but when he sings, "I´m evil" he sounds about as menacing as a teletubby. Convincing fictions: Did Bob Dylan actually marry Isis on the Fifth of May? I don´t care because I´ve already bought into all the metaphorical self-mythologizing about his life. Same goes for Springsteen; without knowing the details, you can imagine that he´s singing from experience, even if he didn´t have a brother who died at Khesan. Fact: Not so many examples of this. There´s "The Ballad of John and Yoko" and, er ... Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else thinks about songs in these terms, or just wants an excuse to grumble or enthuse about lyrics. __________________ "Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

06-02-2013, 11:34 AM	#5 (permalink)
ZiggyStardust Music Addict Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Mars Posts: 108	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le727fRZHpA I always like this one (it's a great ballad from a poem) as it's almost a history recital. __________________ Welcome to the internet, where opinions are like toilets; everyone thinks theirs are perfect but the public ones stink.

06-02-2013, 05:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
Lisnaholic ...here to hear... Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: He lives on Love Street Posts: 4,444	^ Yes, a story in a song has a lot of appeal, and your one, clocking in at over eight minutes is quite an acheivement. It sounds like Alfred Noyes, along with many writers of the Victorian-Edwardian era had a taste for death and melodrama. Especially in the early part of that period, ballads were often written about famous true murder cases. Here´s one example with some nice old photos to go with:- But speaking in general, I agree with what the other posters are saying - it´s all about the singer´s delivery, and what they can convince us of. For instance, Witney Houston´s "I will always love you" sounds much more heartfelt to me than the Dolly Parton original, although it was presumably DP who actually felt sad enough to write the song in the first place. So I suppose that singing has more to do with acting than fact or fiction - which of course your avatar guy, David Bowie, realized from the start of his glittering career. Who are the other stars and failures of singer-as-actor, I wonder ? __________________ "Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

06-02-2013, 09:01 AM	#3 (permalink)
Stephen I sleep in your hat Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Melbourne, Vic. Aus. Posts: 1,847	I don't know I guess when it comes to lyrics it doesn't matter if they are factual or not. If a song has an interesting narrative I guess knowing it is describing factual events adds another level of interest but ultimately the quality of the writing is more important than the source of inspiration.

06-02-2013, 09:23 PM	#8 (permalink)
Necromancer Divination Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,655	A lot of lyrics during the late 60s and into the early 70s were often a form of social commentary. Like Marvin Gaye's Whats Going On and Inner City Blues for example. These particular songs (and numerous others by various artist) resonated either political, social, or economic themes. This (protest) song dealt with the shooting and killing of four college students at Kent State University in 1970. Written and composed by Neil Young.