I'm just the opposite, the majority of the metal I like does require good singers.

Not from what I've heard. :p:

(joking, joking)

Well its obvious from some of the metal albums that you listen to, that the quality of singing is well down on the list of priorities.:p:

Exactly. :)

For me its often the no.1 priority.

I can't say I can listen to metal if the vocalist doesn't sound good. If it's mostly instrumentals than it's alright, but if the vocalist shows up regularly throughout the songs on the albums, I can't stand it.

I don't know how one could assume I would get bored of a long piece of music. I really do like the music that I do regardless of length - and actually I just finished listening to a 24 minute long piano sonata by Chopin. It honestly does not get dull for me. If it did, I would have given up on classical music a long time ago. And lots of other music, for that matter.

As usual, VEGANGELICA makes good points. Nothing to add there.

I looked up Dio right after I posted this morning. Though a Wiki entry calling his voice "powerful" doesn't equate to "good voice," I'm surprised to find him high on at least one list of best metal vocalists. Personally, I don't like his voice, and I am darn sure he would never be high on a list of male singers from genres that include pop, alternative, etc. I probably could not find one long song that I enjoy where I'd rate the singing as not at least pleasant.

This never was meant to be a debate thread, and certainly not about Dio's singing.

I wonder why you started this thread if you really didn't want to acknowledge the fact the other people feel differently. You basically only discussed the whole topic with one person, which makes me think that you could have just taken it to PM and not bothered any of us with it.

No, it was a thread that you were hoping people would agree with you and you could discuss the topic further with people who think the way you do. Instead, people don't agree with you and you are trying to discuss in the best way you can just to disagree with the people who disagree with you. Even though you have no idea what you're discussing.

Well, me neither (assuming there is a vocalist) but my thing is that most metal vocalists who people think are “good” sound terrible to me—they tend to have very bombastic, “look at all the notes I can hit” vocal styles that trample all over the rest of the music and ruin the mood. What I like is a vocalist who works within the music. Someone like Jus Oborn from Electric Wizard or Tukasa from Swarrrm are the kinds of metal vocalists I enjoy. Not that the two of them sound anything alike, but they add something that would be missed if it wasn’t there, while still doing something that is in keeping with the feeling of the music.

Long songs tend to work better when there's some particular musical theme (call it an earworm) involved and visited upon frequently to give a piece that consistency people associate with classical or certain jazz styles.

If one uses that explanation as a musical barometer of lengthier song quality, a lot of progressive rock-leaning material from the last forty years seems to excel quite well wouldn't you say?

Why are you surprised:confused: Metal was built on powerful vocalists, even the two you mentioned earlier Halford and Dickinson made their reps based on their powerful vocal chords that lent themselves well to metal. It's fairly obvious that Dio would be held in the same esteem.

I bet you just love King Diamond.

:laughing:

I get'cha. And I can agree with you as well. That's where I can see a comparison between Power Metal and Progressive Metal. Both generally have the type of vocalist who tries to "out note" the rest of the group. Some bands keep it subtle, but others just attempt to make people go "holy crap, they hit a high note", and that's not always a good thing.

Oh god damn it! Alright, I feel I have to make this point. Last one. Probably.

Just a quick word on Vengangelica. She makes good points? She makes well-thought out points, but I suspect to you she just makes good points because she agrees with you. The moment she disagrees, if at all, with you she'll suddenly be wrong. Of course. But I admit I have a ton more respect for her view and the way she presents it than yours. But anyway...

First, of course it's a debate thread! What do you post here for if not for debate and discussion? The title is "Anyone else dislike most long songs?" That squiggly thing at the end of the sentence? That's a question mark. You're asking a question. Responses to questions, unless all agree with your view, equals a debate. So to say this was never meant to be a debate thread actually makes you seem more naive than I could even have believed. What? Did you think you'd get a flood of replies saying yes we all agree?
Oh, that's coffee you're smelling, by the way!

Second, no, it's not a thread about Dio's voice. YOU brought that up. All I did was give you a song ("A light in the black") to try out and YOU were the one who insulted Dio's singing. You can say that his voice is shown as "powerful" on that wiki article, but once again (and I've lost count of how many times this has happened) you're only seeing what you want to see. If you'd read further, particularly where it mentions his legacy, you would have seen that he is one of the most revered singers in the genre. The very fact that you had to "look up" Dio instantly takes away from you any right to pronounce judgement on him. If you knew his work, you might be able to talk about him, but if you have to look up information about him in order to make your point, then you don't know him and your opinion on him is less than worthless.

Here's what WIKI has to say about his legacy:

Dio's career spanned over fifty years. During this period, and particularly in the 21st century, he received a number of distinctions and awards. He was inducted into the Cortland City Hall of Fame in 2004, and has a street named after him there called Dio Way. In his post-Elf band Rainbow, Ronnie wrote some of the first Power Metal lyrics. Classic Rock Magazine awarded Dio with the "Metal Guru Award" at their yearly "Roll Of Honour" awards ceremony in 2006. On January 17, 2007, Dio was inducted into Guitar Center's Rock Walk of Fame in Hollywood, CA. Dio was named "Best Metal Singer" at the Revolver Golden Gods Awards in April 2010 for his work on The Devil You Know, making him the oldest recipient of this award at age 67. He accepted the award in person at what was to be his final public appearance, less than one month before his death.[27] The main stage of Bloodstock Open Air is also named after him in tribute after Heaven & Hell pulled out upon his death.
and further

Rolling Stone magazine eulogized Dio with these words: "It wasn't just his mighty pipes that made him Ronnie James Dio — it was his moral fervor...what always stood out was Dio's raging compassion for the lost rock & roll children in his audience. Dio never pretended to be one of the kids — he sang as an adult assuring us that we weren't alone in our suffering, and some day we might even be proud of conquering it"

Now, YOU chose to turn this into an argument about Dio, so don't whine (and yes, it is whining, as you seem to do whenever things don't go your way here) about this suddenly becoming a debate about Dio's voice. YOU did that, and it is the reason I am stepping back from this now, since it is now clear you will go to any lengths to try to justify your position, slag off people you clearly have no clue about, insult genre after genre (heavy metal singers aren't good/prog rock is boring) in your quest to be proven right, which will never happen.

Honestly, if you had only accepted that most of us prefer long songs, instead of trying to convince us we were wrong, and given better reasons, more understandable reasons why you don't like long songs, then maybe people might have responded better. As it is, you've alienated a lot of people here with one thread and become a bit of a laughing-stock, which is sad really, but I for one can't give your logic any more credence. It just does not stack up, and just because you want things to be so, doesn't mean they are.

As for a long song I have hated/been bored with? Of course there have been: I'm not saying ALL longs songs are great. However, that experience does not lead me to conclude that all longs songs are boring and not worthy of investigation, as it has seemed to work out for you, how I can only guess.

THAT's the difference. Ki, Rjinnx and I, and others, are prepared to understand and accept that our musical choices are not always right, but one bad song does not make us stop trying. Where would be the sense in that?

Wise up, wisdom: you're like someone straddling an ice floe (your fragmenting argument against long songs) that's breaking up and trying to maintain your balance as it splits apart. But to quote that Mostly Autumn song you didn't give a chance to, the gap is too wide and if you haven't already fallen in you will. Better learn to swim.

See ya some other time!

I am assuming that people get bored of almost *any* activity after a while and want a change, a break, a chance to focus on something else. Therefore, I am assuming that people when listening to music will eventually happen upon a song (or can imagine a song) that is so long that its length becomes one reason they don't like it.

I can understand how you like the music that you do regardless of its length. Can you imagine there being a song, though, that is so long that you'd get tired of listening to it, just like you might start to get bored and feel distaste reading a very long book, or watching a 6-hour movie, or eating an ice cream cone with 20 scoops of ice cream?

It seems in this thread that almost all posters can't imagine getting bored due to the length of a song. Some act as if wisdom's disliking most long songs (over six minutes) is baffling or small-minded. His preference seems to be a completely understandable human reaction to me, given that people often get bored doing one thing for too long and itch to move on to something else.

Mind you, in my view there is nothing wrong with tending to like either long songs or short songs. It is simply interesting to find out the reasons for people's preferences.

Actually, wisdom has replied to many posters in this thread. Ki made the same accusation as you, but it isn't correct.

There are some good heavy metal singers. However, it's strange to me that a list rating them seems to go mostly on power. Longevity, power, decent song-writing (for that genere), etc. might make Dio revered by some - but nobody is going to convince me he's good overall or that I should want to put up with a > 6-minute song from him. By the way, I looked him up for third-party opinions - I've become fairly familiar with him over the past two or three years, mainly spurred by VH1 Classic.

"Most of us" isn't "most of the general public." I didn't realize how atypical this place is until the thread. Or how eager to debate people are. If I'd made a poll with the thread - which I'm not sure is possible - I think more people would have realized it was a simple question, not seeking much more than yes or no and some, er, brief explanations or examples.

Also, I've liked VEGANGELICA's posts more for the "well-thought out points" than just agreeing with me. I often don't feel I have the time to do much thinking, and when I try to write out my thoughts, sometimes it's messy.

Finally, yeah, I don't like prog and would argue that it's overrated, but the truth is I like almost no music from the 70's or earlier and wouldn't want to hear lengthy versions of old songs from other genres. Except I like Manfred Mann's full version of "Blinded by the Night."

Vengangelica
Let me try to point out the difference here, which both you and wisdom seem to be missing completely.

The rest of us are not saying that there is or has never been a long song with which we became bored. As I mentioned in my last post, it has happened to me, infrequently. Sorry for bolding the next part but it is important and neither of you seem to be understanding when I say it so:

The difference is that listening to a long song, which becomes boring or which I don't like, does not make me think, or put me in a frame of mind where I think that ALL long songs are therefore boring.

THIS is the point you're both missing. Of course things can become boring if overstretched. An overlong film can meander ("The matrix revolutions" sagged for me in the middle) as can a book that's too long or not enjoyable enough, and the other one you mentioned, well that's just silly. Eating twenty scoops of ice cream would make you feel sick, not bored. But yeah, the principle remains. I wouldn't have another 20 scoops of ice cream again after that, but only because I wouldn't want to be sick, not because I was bored.

Your point and examples there start to get a little muddy, but the important thing to understand is that we, the vast majority of us, don't make a draconian judgement based on a bad experience. So if we don't like a long song, okay we dont like it. No-one's saying that they like EVERY song they listen to. You only have to browse through my journal to see that there are some albums I've been disappointed with, or tracks on them I've disliked. In that case, yeah maybe I wouldn't listen to more music from that band --- or maybe I'd give them another chance (cough) Snow Patrol (cough) --- but the important point is there are few if any albums I've hated because of the length of the songs.

Maybe it's not true to say the length doesn't matter to me: personally, I prefer longer songs, though if the song is not good then a longer version of it will (probably) not make it better, though it has happened. Look at U2's "Bad", benefited from being extended. Just one example. Another is Thin LIzzy's "Still in love with you".

Anyway, the thing none of us here can understand is not that wisdom does not like long songs --- anyone is entitled to their opinion and preference --- but that the length of the song is a direct barometer for whether they listen to the song or not. None of us here would look at a song by an artiste we have never heard from, and check the length: it's just not important, unless maybe we're in a hurry, on the way to bed, tired or whatever.

So THAT's what we can't understand: that the length of a song stops wisdom from even trying it.

It is, yes, but the unfortunate thing is that wisdom has not engaged in debate. He (she?) has literally attacked people's music preferences, totally unnecessarily and inappropriately slagged off and underminded icons in genres he/she does not like, and has probably little experience of, and in general been very combative, stubborn, defensive and at times downright rude. This has, admittedly, led me to be more than a little offensive myself and for that I apologise to all here, but it's hard to listen to such unsubstianted and irrelevant pronouncements without losing your rag. Shouldn't have done, I know, but wisdom's refusal to listen learn or even understand, to see anyone's view other than his/her own has really annoyed me, and kept me posting even though I said I would step back.

No, when talking to Ki, me or anyone else who disagrees with their view he/she has just attacked his points and not dealt with or accepted them. He/she has already said he/she did not want a debate. It's pretty clear now why, as he/she seems unable to hold a cogent argument, but as I already said, why join a group like this if you're not prepared to debate? Baffles me, it really does. This has been an interesting thread certainly, but it could have been carried on in a much better spirit had wisdom been prepared to discuss instead of attack or ignore. Sad really.

In fairness, as I think I mentioned, you've been a far better debater than he/she; just a pity you're basically doing his/her talking, fighting his/her battle for him/her (will someone please let me know if wisdom is male or female so I can stop using these alternative pronouns?)

Just tell me, really, do you support the belief that if you hear a long song you don't like, or several, that you stop listening to all long songs purely on that basis?

Honestly, I despair. What do you think metal is? It's not about people playing pianos and singing quietly. It's about POWER, NOISE and VOLUME. Energy, passion, often anger and yeah, power are all required attributes for a metal singer. If you want restrained, quiet, introspective or gentle singing look in other genres, but don't seek to apply the requisites of those genres to metal. Metal singers have to be powerful, some so much so that you can't make out what they're saying (death vocals), which I personally hate, but realise it's a requirement for that sort of metal. If you judge Dio within the framework of what's considered a heavy metal singer you'll see he is one of the greatest. Compare him of course though to Placido or Springsteen or Dylan and of course he won't measure up: they're different genres. You can't generalise like that, and it's something you're all too fond of doing when it suits your arguement.


Who did you think was going to reply to a post you made in a forum about music? Lawyers? Bus drivers? Politicians? Some of us may be in those professions, but we're all united by a love of music, so to say we're not the general public is of course right, and also wrong. We're just as much a part of the public as you are, but we all love music so of course you're going to get replies with a music-based slant. It's that other word in the title, before "banter".

And yes, you can post polls, but it wouldn't stop people from debating the question. That's what you do with a question, and that's what we do here. If you just wanted simple yes/no answers with no elaboration on the reasons, you should go for Mister Poll or something. Don't expect though to ask a question here and not be challenged on it.

There's your problem, right there. If you don't have time to think out replies don't make a thread, or at worst make it and then back out and leave people to debate it without you. You can't half-do the job.
You don't like metal. You don't like prog (how much of it have you heard, I mean, beyond the first two minutes or so?) and you don't like 70s music. What, may I ask, DO you like?? :confused::banghead:

Sorry, but the banter comes hand in hand with the music. That's kind of the whole concept of this place.

this thread is literally what i read when i'm waiting for my relief driver....as (ironically) the posts are getting longer and longer

so just for the hell of it...

to the op....seriously man i think its awesome you dislike "most" long songs....long being anything over 6 minutes....i could not disagree with you more

i prefer long songs

matter of fact i prefer very very very very repetitive long songs....out of the last three albums i bought one one has more than three songs and one of them is a 40 minute single track.....and let me tell that track is amazing....same guitar riff all the way through, same drums all the way through.....and a ton of fucked up electronic weirdness....and to be honest at this moment i cannot get enough of it....i want this song played at my funeral

also to the op....i agree with you on Dio....i think he sucked....its an opinion

i also agree with janszoon....when it comes to long songs for the most part they are far from relaxing and boring....quite the opposite....the one i mentioned above literally sounds like the world ending....and there are no lyrics at all....some of the best metal just ignores the fact that words may be needed

and the whole thing about good bands being on tv....i think i could quickly write up bands that should never be on tv....starting with QUICKSAND!

whom by chance just appeared on the Jimmy Fallon show...promoting an album they released in 1993....it was like watching your best friend high on heroin

Alright, I have to know what album you're talking about.

Jastreb....it is mind changing

Jastreb

ok ok i lied it's 36 minutes :)

edit: and it starts again....soooo f-in good

I can't add much more than was perfectly summed up in Trollheart's post in #219, but I just wanted to say that in the short time I've been around here, it seems that many of the people here say "Yes" to music and don't have the litany of "No"s that I see in the posts from "wisdom" (the oxymoron has been noted). Love of music comes from growth and openness - not picky exclusions because you just don't have the time. Solely time-based exclusionary thinking is not love of music or sound anymore than you'd say "Sorry honey, I love you, but could you just cut to the chase 'cause I really don't have time for you." There are just too many other bizarre inconsistencies in the OP's comments, but Trollheart covered the basics that matter, so I won't go on.

...BTW, it's, "Blinded By the Light"...

Some great song longer than 6 minutes out there. How about these 2:

Black Crippled Pheonix
We Forgotten Who We Are by Crippled Black Phoenix on Spotify

Yndi Halda

First of all tl;dr. Second of all if that is the dismal amount of songs you have listened too then you really can't say you are that knowledgeable about music. I've also noticed your tastes are limited too power metal and you avoid reaching out to more diverse music of all genres. My advice to you is to stop repeating the same droll opinions and get some more experience.

Oh and trollheart, you said halfway through the thread that you would stop bothering to argue with wisdom but you continued to get annoyed with him as though your trying to out do him. Time to move on I think. Keep it clean with the personal attacks too, calling him arrogant is not showing a mature debate.

Why can't a metal singer be expected to sing well? Plenty of people can sing powerfully and still tunefully. People here telling me to like things that humans aren't naturally inclined to like....

FYI, I like almost every popular genre from the 80's, rock and pop the most. Since then, some music in the pop and rock realms has appealed to me, but little else.

"Banter" has a connotation of friendly.

Why does that remotely seem strange? Metal is built around power, so its hardly surprising then, that most of its revered singers are going to be those with powerful voices.

You keep on dragging out Dio, as some kind of example for your weak debate. You don't like Dio, that's fine as not everybody is going to like the same vocalists, but there's no need to keep up this confused ruse of yours, about why Dio is so revered in metal circles, it just makes you look like a troll.

You don't seem to know too much about 70's music either, the longer song was usually the norm rather than the exception. Dio was from that era, 6 minute songs would've have been something he was well used to.

Wisdom likes power metal!!! But power metal is built around vocalists with powerful voices and Dio is a major influence on the genre:laughing:

Yo Vanilla. You're right, and I tried to stay out, but my inner buttinski won in the end. Some comments were made, particularly about metal and Dio, that I just couldn't let slide. Also, wisdom started crying about "why did we make this a thread about Dio" when it was him (him? Is it him?) who had done that, completely alone. I was just carrying on that part, but I would have been happy to have left it if he had.

And sorry, I think I am keeping it clean, considering what I could be calling him. Arrogant is the only word that fits when you say "Dio is (was) a lousy singer", not to mention the way wisdom has gone on here like his opinion is the only one that can possibly be right. Also not to mention that the attacks go both ways: just to defend one of the greatest heavy metal singers in the genre should not earn you a title of "sensitive fanboy". I'm not prepared to sit here and let him pi$$ all over my music, when he plainly knows little about it. And don't even get me started on prog rock! All I'm doing is defending my music's integrity: if you see that as an attack I'm sorry, but please remember it's not a one-sided one. And I'm being as restrained as I can.


Yeah, it may be immature in some ways, but damn it, if the cap fits...

I have to admit I can't stand Dio's voice either. Sorry, TH.

Jansz, that's totally cool. But the difference is you say "I can't stand his voice", which is an opinion, yours, and you're certainly allowed to have it. That's your right. Wisdom, though, says "Dio is a lousy singer", which while also being the wrong tense as the man is dead (but leaving that aside as semantics) is put over as a fact, not an opinion, as if there's nothing else anyone could see him as being.

I hate, as you know, death vocals, so anyone like Dimmu Borgir, Slipknot et al do nothing for me, but I wouldn't say they don't have good singers. They dont appeal to me, Dio doesnt appeal to you. No problem. It's an opinion, we all have them. It's when someone tries to force their opinion down your throat, leaving no room for differences, and also tries to back up a plainly unbackupable (I know that's not a word) fact with research, that it annoys me. No matter your choice or opinion, Dio was hailed as one of the most important voices in metal, and thats what any research will turn up. Trying to twist that to fit his arguement is where wisdom fell down.

Also, he has extended the Dio part of this to ridiculous proportions, almost moving away from the original idea of the thread. And like his arguements, it's twisting and changing as it goes. Funny really I suppose, sad in another way.

I think we should all hold hands and sing songs while I play some guitar. I'm not exactly too bothered by wisdom even if his rebuttals are a bit on the odd side. Though, I don't think he went about it the right way either. I mean, wisdom, you set up a question in a thread that would more than possibly cause a debate, and you're surprised it happened? Just try to remember that we want to protect our opinion as much as you want to. It's not an attack, it's debating.

I go through fazes where i listen to epic/long/extended songs. But there also times where I just want to listen to a punk record that lasts in its entirety 18 minutes.

And DIO'S voice is awesome. I'm gonna play Holy Diver tonight and annoy my girlfriend with it.

Wisdom is not remotely interested in hearing what people into heavy music think of Dio, his mind is already made up. Here is somebody with a limited knowledge of a genre, making silly comments that are totally unsubstantiated. I mean anybody with half a brain, would hardly enter into a debate and use examples like "Dio's voice is too boring to last 6 minutes" "Metal songs over 6 mins are boring" "I can't understand for the life of me, why metal vocalists are revered for their powerful voices" The last statement must rank as one of the silliest I've seen since I joined this forum.

Actually, I do know that - although I'm not sure many 6+ minutes songs were common on the airwaves then.

Yes, I stand by Dio as a "lousy singer." I believe there are some near-absolutes when it comes to evaluating voice quality. There are many female singers (for example, Adele) who don't sound good to my ears, but their voice quality isn't the issue. Unfortunately, here I would need another stooge to try to better explain things - I hardly know technical terms. Anyway, power, schmower - heck, if a voice is powerful, that could magnify any grating elements. [shakes head at some tastes] Not that Dio was worse when letting loose. I'd rather hear a nice voice with mediocre strength than a strong, irritating voice. Powerful voice to sing over loud guitars and drums?

Do I like "power metal"? It's a vague term to me. More specifically, I like hair metal. Yeah, that. I don't claim much of it has artistic merit, just like I'm implying Dio and most long songs aren't musically impressive.

*"stooge" is a joke for my own amusement

The early to mid 1970s was the era of prog and it also dominated the charts as well, most avid music listeners of the time knew most of these bands as well. Music listeners were therefore fully exposed to long songs and most rock groups including metal bands usually experiemnted with them. It was only in the late 1970s and the arrival of punk etc that song length really brought short songs back into fashion.

Yes. I can see why you carry on Trollheart. I understand. I'm living vicariously through your posts because I agree on all points still. Just wanted to remind you that you're not alone, but maybe it is time to never come back to this thread, despite what nonsense is spewed. Can't feed the troll, Trollheart.

And it wasn't just rock with longer songs in the 70s, disco and funk had no shortage of 6+ minute songs as well.

Industrial hailed from the 70s and is a genre that is certainly known for the extreme length of their songs

DIO....breaking up relationships sins 1975