Anyone Else Dislike Most Long Songs?

VEGANGELICA · 08-24-2012, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Vengangelica
The rest of us are not saying that there is or has never been a long song with which we became bored. As I mentioned in my last post, it has happened to me, infrequently. Sorry for bolding the next part but it is important and neither of you seem to be understanding when I say it so:

The difference is that listening to a long song, which becomes boring or which I don't like, does not make me think, or put me in a frame of mind where I think that ALL long songs are therefore boring.

THIS is the point you're both missing. Of course things can become boring if overstretched. An overlong film can meander ("The matrix revolutions" sagged for me in the middle) as can a book that's too long or not enjoyable enough, and the other one you mentioned, well that's just silly. Eating twenty scoops of ice cream would make you feel sick, not bored. But yeah, the principle remains. I wouldn't have another 20 scoops of ice cream again after that, but only because I wouldn't want to be sick, not because I was bored.

Your point and examples there start to get a little muddy, but the important thing to understand is that we, the vast majority of us, don't make a draconian judgement based on a bad experience. So if we don't like a long song, okay we dont like it. No-one's saying that they like EVERY song they listen to. [...]

Maybe it's not true to say the length doesn't matter to me: personally, I prefer longer songs, though if the song is not good then a longer version of it will (probably) not make it better, though it has happened. Look at U2's "Bad", benefited from being extended. Just one example. Another is Thin LIzzy's "Still in love with you".

Anyway, the thing none of us here can understand is not that wisdom does not like long songs --- anyone is entitled to their opinion and preference --- but that the length of the song is a direct barometer for whether they listen to the song or not. None of us here would look at a song by an artiste we have never heard from, and check the length: it's just not important, unless maybe we're in a hurry, on the way to bed, tired or whatever.

So THAT's what we can't understand: that the length of a song stops wisdom from even trying it.

(will someone please let me know if wisdom is male or female so I can stop using these alternative pronouns?)

Just tell me, really, do you support the belief that if you hear a long song you don't like, or several, that you stop listening to all long songs purely on that basis?

(I think wisdom is male based on what he has said of himself, Trollheart.

)

Until now, what I have heard people in this thread say (with the exception of wisdom and myself) is that they like and would like a song regardless of length: length is not a factor in their preferences. Thank you, Trollheart, for acknowledging that maybe it's not true to say that song length doesn't matter to you.

I don't recall wisdom's stating that he expects ALL long songs to be boring based on the fact that he has disliked many more long songs than short ones.

Wisdom's description of how he views long songs sounds identical to mine: based on my experiences of listening to music, when a new song I have never heard before is longer than 6 minutes, then I think the odds are higher that I will find the song to be boring, repetitive, or meandering such that I will be less likely to enjoy the song compared to a shorter one.

Trollheart, you asked, "Do you support the belief that if you hear a long song you don't like, or several, that you stop listening to all long songs purely on that basis?"

My answer is: Yes. A person's method of choosing music does not matter to me. If she wants to avoid all songs longer than 6 minutes due to having heard one or three long songs that she didn't like, then that's fine with me. I trust that she will be the best one to judge what listening method to use to bring herself musical enjoyment.

Note, however, that wisdom has never said he always rejects long songs outright due to having heard just several long songs.

Wisdom also explained that song length isn't the only criterion he uses to decide whether to listen to a song or predict whether he'll like it, but song length is one criterion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisdom

Time alone isn't the deciding factor. That's a strange conclusion from some readers. It is a cheat I use based on experience, that's all [...].

Like wisdom, I will probably listen to the beginnings of many different songs, even long ones.

However, when I decide what music to listen to, I sometimes reject listening to an entire song simply because of its length (especially if the length combines with my dislike of the genre or the artist's other music I have heard).

Why? Wisdom explains...

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisdom

Realistically, everyone needs limits. There is plenty of good music in this world - leaving out categories one tends not to like allows more enjoyment for the proven stuff.

And I agree. If I have nine minutes to listen to music and can either listen to one piece that lasts nine minutes, or three shorter pieces lasting three minutes each, then I will almost always choose the three shorter pieces and not listen to the long one (or will only "taste" it for a minute), especially if those pieces are in genres I prefer...

...that is, unless I've been staring into your eyes too long, have become hypnotized, and listen to the long song instead!

* * * * * *

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisdom

"Banter" has a connotation of friendly.

Yes it does, doesn't it.

* * * * * *

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla

First of all tl;dr. Second of all if that is the dismal amount of songs you have listened too then you really can't say you are that knowledgeable about music. I've also noticed your tastes are limited too power metal and you avoid reaching out to more diverse music of all genres. My advice to you is to stop repeating the same droll opinions and get some more experience.

Drawing inferences based on the songs one has heard, regardless of the number, is a reasonable way to start making sense for oneself of the vast array of songs in existence so that one can choose what to listen to next.

All conclusions about music can be refined over time through listening to more songs, but there is no set number of songs one must hear before one can say one's conclusions are "correct." Even someone who has drawn conclusions about music after listening to 100,000 unique songs might find those conclusions contradicted by the next 300,000 songs he hears.

The idea that a person should wait to offer an opinion on MusicBanter until having listened to some (undefined) number of songs sounds very elitist to me.

* * * * * *

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rjinnx

The thing is, there is such thing as opinionated statements. Something that is this or that is subjective. But there should always be a reason behind it. I always thought those statements being an opinion is a given, so I don't see where the necessity is to state it. Example: "Dio is a lousy singer." A clear questionable response would be "Why do you think so?". Indicating a belief or idea coming from thought. I really don't see the problem here.

I agree with you that when a person says, "Such and such is horrible," I assume this is her opinion and she is not saying her view is an objective fact that should be true for all people.

For example, if wisdom *does* believe that long songs are inherently flawed because of their length (despite evidence that some people like the songs, which contradicts the notion that the songs have inherent "flaws" preventing all people from liking them), that would be interesting to learn...but until he specifically says that, I don't assume.

**Scarlett O'Hara** · 08-24-2012, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

Drawing inferences based on the songs one has heard, regardless of the number, is a reasonable way to start making sense for oneself of the vast array of songs in existence so that one can choose what to listen to next.

All conclusions about music can be refined over time through listening to more songs, but there is no set number of songs one must hear before one can say one's conclusions are "correct." Even someone who has drawn conclusions about music after listening to 100,000 unique songs might find those conclusions contradicted by the next 300,000 songs he hears.

The idea that a person should wait to offer an opinion on MusicBanter until having listened to some (undefined) number of songs sounds very elitist to me.

I never said there was a number he had to reach the most adequate experience levels. I'm merely saying based on his unnecessary comment of how many songs he has heard and his limited debating skills that that I have noticed throughout this thread that obviously 5000 is not enough yet. Also a small selection of genres will not give him a well rounded idea of what sounds and instrumentation make quality music.

This advice I am giving is hardly elitist.

sopsych · 08-22-2012, 09:38 PM

There are some good heavy metal singers. However, it's strange to me that a list rating them seems to go mostly on power. Longevity, power, decent song-writing (for that genere), etc. might make Dio revered by some - but nobody is going to convince me he's good overall or that I should want to put up with a > 6-minute song from him. By the way, I looked him up for third-party opinions - I've become fairly familiar with him over the past two or three years, mainly spurred by VH1 Classic.

Quote:

Honestly, if you had only accepted that most of us prefer long songs, instead of trying to convince us we were wrong, and given better reasons, more understandable reasons why you don't like long songs, then maybe people might have responded better. As it is, you've alienated a lot of people here with one thread and become a bit of a laughing-stock, which is sad really, but I for one can't give your logic any more credence. It just does not stack up, and just because you want things to be so, doesn't mean they are.

"Most of us" isn't "most of the general public." I didn't realize how atypical this place is until the thread. Or how eager to debate people are. If I'd made a poll with the thread - which I'm not sure is possible - I think more people would have realized it was a simple question, not seeking much more than yes or no and some, er, brief explanations or examples.

Also, I've liked VEGANGELICA's posts more for the "well-thought out points" than just agreeing with me. I often don't feel I have the time to do much thinking, and when I try to write out my thoughts, sometimes it's messy.

Finally, yeah, I don't like prog and would argue that it's overrated, but the truth is I like almost no music from the 70's or earlier and wouldn't want to hear lengthy versions of old songs from other genres. Except I like Manfred Mann's full version of "Blinded by the Night."

Trollheart · 08-23-2012, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisdom

There are some good heavy metal singers. However, it's strange to me that a list rating them seems to go mostly on power. Longevity, power, decent song-writing (for that genere), etc. might make Dio revered by some - but nobody is going to convince me he's good overall or that I should want to put up with a > 6-minute song from him. By the way, I looked him up for third-party opinions - I've become fairly familiar with him over the past two or three years, mainly spurred by VH1 Classic.

Honestly, I despair. What do you think metal is? It's not about people playing pianos and singing quietly. It's about POWER, NOISE and VOLUME. Energy, passion, often anger and yeah, power are all required attributes for a metal singer. If you want restrained, quiet, introspective or gentle singing look in other genres, but don't seek to apply the requisites of those genres to metal. Metal singers have to be powerful, some so much so that you can't make out what they're saying (death vocals), which I personally hate, but realise it's a requirement for that sort of metal. If you judge Dio within the framework of what's considered a heavy metal singer you'll see he is one of the greatest. Compare him of course though to Placido or Springsteen or Dylan and of course he won't measure up: they're different genres. You can't generalise like that, and it's something you're all too fond of doing when it suits your arguement.

Quote:

"Most of us" isn't "most of the general public." I didn't realize how atypical this place is until the thread. Or how eager to debate people are. If I'd made a poll with the thread - which I'm not sure is possible - I think more people would have realized it was a simple question, not seeking much more than yes or no and some, er, brief explanations or examples.

Who did you think was going to reply to a post you made in a forum about music? Lawyers? Bus drivers? Politicians? Some of us may be in those professions, but we're all united by a love of music, so to say we're not the general public is of course right, and also wrong. We're just as much a part of the public as you are, but we all love music so of course you're going to get replies with a music-based slant. It's that other word in the title, before "banter".

And yes, you can post polls, but it wouldn't stop people from debating the question. That's what you do with a question, and that's what we do here. If you just wanted simple yes/no answers with no elaboration on the reasons, you should go for Mister Poll or something. Don't expect though to ask a question here and not be challenged on it.

Quote:

Also, I've liked VEGANGELICA's posts more for the "well-thought out points" than just agreeing with me. I often don't feel I have the time to do much thinking, and when I try to write out my thoughts, sometimes it's messy.

There's your problem, right there. If you don't have time to think out replies don't make a thread, or at worst make it and then back out and leave people to debate it without you. You can't half-do the job.

Quote:

Finally, yeah, I don't like prog and would argue that it's overrated, but the truth is I like almost no music from the 70's or earlier and wouldn't want to hear lengthy versions of old songs from other genres. Except I like Manfred Mann's full version of "Blinded by the Night."

You don't like metal. You don't like prog (how much of it have you heard, I mean, beyond the first two minutes or so?) and you don't like 70s music. What, may I ask, DO you like??

bob. · 08-23-2012, 06:03 AM

this thread is literally what i read when i'm waiting for my relief driver....as (ironically) the posts are getting longer and longer

so just for the hell of it...

to the op....seriously man i think its awesome you dislike "most" long songs....long being anything over 6 minutes....i could not disagree with you more

i prefer long songs

matter of fact i prefer very very very very repetitive long songs....out of the last three albums i bought one one has more than three songs and one of them is a 40 minute single track.....and let me tell that track is amazing....same guitar riff all the way through, same drums all the way through.....and a ton of fucked up electronic weirdness....and to be honest at this moment i cannot get enough of it....i want this song played at my funeral

also to the op....i agree with you on Dio....i think he sucked....its an opinion

i also agree with janszoon....when it comes to long songs for the most part they are far from relaxing and boring....quite the opposite....the one i mentioned above literally sounds like the world ending....and there are no lyrics at all....some of the best metal just ignores the fact that words may be needed

and the whole thing about good bands being on tv....i think i could quickly write up bands that should never be on tv....starting with QUICKSAND!

whom by chance just appeared on the Jimmy Fallon show...promoting an album they released in 1993....it was like watching your best friend high on heroin

**Janszoon** · 08-23-2012, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob.

matter of fact i prefer very very very very repetitive long songs....out of the last three albums i bought one one has more than three songs and one of them is a 40 minute single track.....and let me tell that track is amazing....same guitar riff all the way through, same drums all the way through.....and a ton of fucked up electronic weirdness....and to be honest at this moment i cannot get enough of it....i want this song played at my funeral

Alright, I have to know what album you're talking about.

bob. · 08-23-2012, 06:13 AM

Jastreb....it is mind changing

Jastreb

ok ok i lied it's 36 minutes

edit: and it starts again....soooo f-in good

rostasi · 08-23-2012, 07:42 AM

I can't add much more than was perfectly summed up in Trollheart's post in #219, but I just wanted to say that in the short time I've been around here, it seems that many of the people here say "Yes" to music and don't have the litany of "No"s that I see in the posts from "wisdom" (the oxymoron has been noted). Love of music comes from growth and openness - not picky exclusions because you just don't have the time. Solely time-based exclusionary thinking is not love of music or sound anymore than you'd say "Sorry honey, I love you, but could you just cut to the chase 'cause I really don't have time for you." There are just too many other bizarre inconsistencies in the OP's comments, but Trollheart covered the basics that matter, so I won't go on.

...BTW, it's, "Blinded By the Light"...

GrapevineFires · 08-23-2012, 08:41 AM

Some great song longer than 6 minutes out there. How about these 2:

Black Crippled Pheonix
We Forgotten Who We Are by Crippled Black Phoenix on Spotify

Yndi Halda

**Scarlett O'Hara** · 08-23-2012, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wisdom

I base my observation on having listened to at least 5000 songs in my life. I grant you that maybe a longer song demands a slightly longer sample.

First of all tl;dr. Second of all if that is the dismal amount of songs you have listened too then you really can't say you are that knowledgeable about music. I've also noticed your tastes are limited too power metal and you avoid reaching out to more diverse music of all genres. My advice to you is to stop repeating the same droll opinions and get some more experience.

Oh and trollheart, you said halfway through the thread that you would stop bothering to argue with wisdom but you continued to get annoyed with him as though your trying to out do him. Time to move on I think. Keep it clean with the personal attacks too, calling him arrogant is not showing a mature debate.

08-23-2012, 06:03 AM	#5 (permalink)
bob. Still sends his reguards. Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Trying to get out of the cat town.... Posts: 5,039	this thread is literally what i read when i'm waiting for my relief driver....as (ironically) the posts are getting longer and longer so just for the hell of it... to the op....seriously man i think its awesome you dislike "most" long songs....long being anything over 6 minutes....i could not disagree with you more i prefer long songs matter of fact i prefer very very very very repetitive long songs....out of the last three albums i bought one one has more than three songs and one of them is a 40 minute single track.....and let me tell that track is amazing....same guitar riff all the way through, same drums all the way through.....and a ton of fucked up electronic weirdness....and to be honest at this moment i cannot get enough of it....i want this song played at my funeral also to the op....i agree with you on Dio....i think he sucked....its an opinion i also agree with janszoon....when it comes to long songs for the most part they are far from relaxing and boring....quite the opposite....the one i mentioned above literally sounds like the world ending....and there are no lyrics at all....some of the best metal just ignores the fact that words may be needed and the whole thing about good bands being on tv....i think i could quickly write up bands that should never be on tv....starting with QUICKSAND! whom by chance just appeared on the Jimmy Fallon show...promoting an album they released in 1993....it was like watching your best friend high on heroin __________________ A kiss is the beginning of cannibalism. Reach out, pierce the fine fabric of the sheltering sky, take repose.

08-23-2012, 06:13 AM	#7 (permalink)
bob. Still sends his reguards. Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Trying to get out of the cat town.... Posts: 5,039	Jastreb....it is mind changing Jastreb ok ok i lied it's 36 minutes edit: and it starts again....soooo f-in good __________________ A kiss is the beginning of cannibalism. Reach out, pierce the fine fabric of the sheltering sky, take repose.

08-23-2012, 07:42 AM	#8 (permalink)
rostasi . Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 4,008	I can't add much more than was perfectly summed up in Trollheart's post in #219, but I just wanted to say that in the short time I've been around here, it seems that many of the people here say "Yes" to music and don't have the litany of "No"s that I see in the posts from "wisdom" (the oxymoron has been noted). Love of music comes from growth and openness - not picky exclusions because you just don't have the time. Solely time-based exclusionary thinking is not love of music or sound anymore than you'd say "Sorry honey, I love you, but could you just cut to the chase 'cause I really don't have time for you." There are just too many other bizarre inconsistencies in the OP's comments, but Trollheart covered the basics that matter, so I won't go on. ...BTW, it's, "Blinded By the Light"... Last edited by rostasi; 08-23-2012 at 08:02 AM.

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08-23-2012, 08:41 AM	#9 (permalink)
GrapevineFires Music Addict Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Wales Posts: 63	Some great song longer than 6 minutes out there. How about these 2: Black Crippled Pheonix We Forgotten Who We Are by Crippled Black Phoenix on Spotify Yndi Halda