blastingas10

Are there any bands who could be considered prog and jam?

Raust

It's funny that you bring up this topic. I've been thinking this for quiet sometime after hearing some jam bands I could definatley see the prog influence. Phish in particular manage to break into some pretty sick jams that are pretty similar to King Crimson. They manage to change the atmosphere on a dime. I love progressive music such as King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, Gentle Giant ect. and I also love jam bands such as Phish, Grateful Dead, Moe, String Cheese Incident ect. There's hardly any difference between the 2 different styles of music much like poetry/lyrics. The only real noticeable difference I've seen is that progressive music is a bit more coherent than jam music. That being said jam bands base there music around the fact that there's a pretty big difference between one show to the next and where the jam takes them. It's cause of this that tapes are circulated and live material is sought out by these bands as there finest work.

Neapolitan

I heard from somewhere that Traffic was both, they are listed as Prog and Jazz Fussion, but Jam Band is not listed as a genre for Traffic on wiki. They are one of the best and do a wide range of music. Jim Capaldi was a genius on drums. Traffic (band) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Jam Band" is relatively recent term or a term that has been more increasingly used, and it's a retronym when applied to bands like the Grateful Dread - wiki had them listed only as "Rock." But when speaking of Jam Bands the Grateful Dead is the first band that comes to mind. I never really got into modern Jam Band groups and I find the cult following of the Grateful Dean and Phish a little annoying. I don't know why but fan numbers put me off imo Phish is the Lady Gaga of Jam Bands. I feel I better off not worrying about them. Just count how many time Phish is mentioned in this thread.

The best bands imo that could really jam that could fall under the umbrella of a Jam Band are Traffic, ABB* and the Byrds. (*that is the abbrev. of Allman Brothers Band and not a misspelling of ABBA)

My bad - I didn't mean to mis-quote you. I should had written "... improvisation written into the song." I inserted "is" that didn't appear in the original quote. I probabably did it while I was proof reading because it sounded grammatically correct at the time.

If we first describe what we think some of the hallmarks of Prog and Jam Band I think it would show where we are coming from in as far as how we understand them.
I usually try try to keep an open ear first to see what people have to say and then see how it compares to the general accepted consensus of music.

What I notice about Prog is that the form of the song is more complex then most styles of music. It's not the simple verse chorus verse chorus etc of most Pop songs. Just look at the track listing for Supper's Ready or Close to the Edge. Sometime a song incorperates different genres of music, (Jazz, Rock, Raggae, Classical music, World music etc.) but what kind is dependant on the influences of the musicians in the band, and even on music trends at the time.

I think Jam Bands shouldn't be only describe simply playing a song with an extended impromptu jam session at the end of the song. That might be over simplifying it, and there are other style of Rock (and Alt Rock) that do the same.

__________________

blastingas10

The Byrds Jam and prog? I never really thought of them as either. I have made a case for the Allman Brothers Band as a prog band in another thread. The only thing that seems to hold them back from being accepted as prog is their heavy blues influence.

This is a pretty good little paper.

Musicology
Blues-Rock, Progressive: A Style Analysis of the Allman Brothers Band
Musicology

Neapolitan

No. I was mentioning bands I like, that could be considered as a Jam Band, not both Prog and Jam Band. Though I did hear somewhere 8 Miles High is considered the first Prog song. So maybe the Byrds could be considered both a proto Prog & proto Jam Band.

(interesting read)
I don't think a band has to be devoid of Blues influence to be Prog. David Gilmore's solos can be real Bluesly. There are other reasons why ABB may not be a Prog band. When it comes to how bands are classified into genres sometimes it comes down to location. Most bands that were eventually labeled Prog were middle class British bands. West Coast bands (during the 60's) like CCR The Byrds and the Grateful Dead took to extended solo jamming and they also took to American Roots music like Folk, Blues, Country etc.ABB were inbetween those West bands mentioned and Southern Rock (timewise and musical style).

__________________

Guybrush

I wouldn't call Allman Brothers prog because I don't think they were a part of the musical culture which prog evolved from. They had nothing to do with it. There may be features of their music that sound similar, but that's it. A platypus has a bill and lives in water, but it's not a duck.

I also ultimately feel that any genre discussion is mostly futile as genres are vague definitions to try and organize human creativity, but I guess that's a discussion for another thread.

edit :

A side note on prog and blues, I wouldn't say Gilmour's playing real bluesy because real bluesy makes me think of someone like B. B. King. But yeah, there's a blues influence on Pink Floyd. There's also a bit of blues influence on Gentle Giant's first album. But in general, I don't hear much blues in prog rock. I remember an interview I saw with Steve Howe and he was talking about how he did not want to play anything bluesy when he started out as a young guitarist so I got the impression it was something they rebelled against.

__________________
Something Completely Different

blastingas10

Rebel agains the blues? Thats just not right. I guess they jus wanted to be different and there's nothing wrong with that. I like to embrace my roots, though.

The allman brothers may not have been prog but they certainly had something that separated them from other blues-rock bands of the time.

Unknown Soldier

Most blues bands of that era were jamming out on stage anyway and the Allman Brothers Band were just set up to do it better with their twin guitar attack. Both movements were very different in how they grew, just how many jam bands would have been trying to use bands like the Nice, Moody Blues, Procul Harum and the Beatles as their main influences? One band though that did fit between being a jam band and a prog band were Wishbone Ash, who on their first album had a reputation of being Britain's answer to the Allman's Brothers Band due to their harmonies, twin guitar attack and tendency to jam, by their third album though Argus, they were a fully fledged prog act.

Neapolitan mentioned the importance of the Byrds "Eight Miles High" as far as I know, that song was always regarded as the birth place of psychedelia and not prog.

__________________
Metal Wars

Power Metal

Pounding Decibels- A Hard and Heavy History

blastingas10

Lets not forget the intricate drumming attack of butch trucks and jaimoe johannson.

I can't think of any rock bands who had such a free-flowing style. They were very jazzy at times and just not your typical blues rock band. I don't like calling them southern rock either. I can't think of any blues or southern rock bands who had songs like "les brers in a minor".

Surell

From what I can tell, Prog is a lot more about concept and fusion of genres, while Jam rock is focused on exploring the music itself, as opposed to the virtuoso or statement of it. Mountain Jam by the Allman Brothers, for example, is spawned from Mountain by Donovan, but takes new form by jamming. King Crimson type dudes, or even Pink Floyd, or maybe even Mastodon or Neurosis if we go way into Proggy Metal, will jam in their music but do it more to create an atmosphere which assists a story. It's also more structured, with certain shifts and musical cues planned to tell the story they're delivering.

Overall, they share a Psychedelic foundation, but differ in the structure and conceptual planning. But that's from a very amateur opinion on the two genres.

__________________