TheBig3

This all seems Prog oriented. By saying that, are you suggesting that all Jam Bands don't plan?

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Frownland

Well jam bands generally have a starting point from which they jump off from. Like the centre of the songs are generally what will be different every time, and maybe the ending. At least that's the pattern that I've been seeing.

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mr dave

It's more like a situation where Jam Bands seem to plan to 'not have a plan' during particular spots in their songs / set.

The other thing I notice is Jam Bands tend to stick to simple and recognizable patterns. Lots of I-IV-V progressions, nothing out of the ordinary, if there's a D and a C during a part then you can pretty well bet the other chord will be a G.

The whole point of Prog bands seems to be to eschew those traditional progressions to create something new and unique, which kind of requires organization, even if one musician is expected to improvise over a particular element of the composition.

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TheBig3

Alright so are the similarities I'm hearing just a factor of music being more complex than pop, then? I feel like I listen to a lot of genres and few seem to have what I'll call movements for lack of a better word.

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Neapolitan

I would tend to think there are related and have things in common but there are differences enough to warrant (if one wants to) a distinction.

The funny things about classifying bands of genres is that they are not totally embraced by artist whose music is classified in that particular genre. In some cases there are industry constructs that have more to do with marketing than the the bands bathos.

Not quite a Sam Dunn chart
The Rock and Roll > The Rock > The OAR:

• The Acid Rock
• The Art Rock
• The Blues Rock
• The Classic Rock
• The Flute Rock
• The Hard Rock
• The Jam Band Rock
• The Prog Rock

But anyways basically first generation of the Prog and the Jam Bands formed around at during same time circa mid 60s up to and around the beginning of the early 70's sooo if there was a ethos they shared it was getting toked.

Should not "sub-genre" be a more appropriate term?

No one's prefect.

It's not fun have your gramma errors spotted - believe you me.

Honestly to me that appears as the work ethic of that particular artist, not all bands operate in the same manner.

I disagree.

Sometimes jamming (and consequentially improvisation) plays an important part in construction of a song, where a band (even a Prog band) would jam together arrange and rearrange the structure of the song until they figure out the final cut. Sometimes, but not always, a musician gets painted in the corner where they have to play the song note-for-note as was on the record because that's what is excepted by their fans.

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Guybrush

I pointed out this exception in an earlier post actually, pointing out that while prog bands use jams as an explorative way to come up with new music (just about all rock bands do), then end product is generally highly composed. If they improvise when playing a finished song, it's likely because they have room for improvisation written into the song somewhere and what's improvised then is typically a solo. That's not really jamming to me which is more when the whole band is free to improvise together.

I think the prog bands that improvise the most are the ones that approach jazz fusion, but then I think it's that jazzy part which explains the improvisation approach and not the prog part of the band.

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blastingas10

I think prog is a little more planned out, a little more finely tuned and In most cases, more technical. And the while the theory behind some jam bands may not be too technical, the act of improvising can be. It's not easy to take a song in so many directions without really knowing where you're going. You really have to know what you're doing to spontaneously play off of each other and be complementing each other in different ways.

Take the allman brothers song "mountain jam". One of the finest examples of jamming in my opinion. It blows me Away. Probably the greatest jam band ever in my opinion. The whole band improvised together so well. Two drummers, two guitars, bass, organ. There were so many layers to their jams.

Neapolitan

I mentioned Prog Rock bands use jam sessions too as part of the creative process because you said that Prog is not improvised, well really you asked permission to make the genereal statement that "progressive rock is not improvised" and that was said without the inclusion of the exception you actually made in an earlier post.

So from there I didn't agree, but it seem that you agreed with me from an early post - to a certain point later specified. I don't know what you mean by "improvisation is written into the song." Really anything can be improvised like rhythms or melodies; improvising doesn't mean playing something without knowing what comes next. It might sound off the cuff without any structure at all, but it really means playing what one feels - a variation on a theme that's somewhat established. (There is a difference between controlled chaos and chaos out of control.) Well lets say if we agree a solo is structured within a song than it's an instrumental section of the song. Because it is part of the song (the instrumental section) doesn't mean that a musician can not improvise the lead part or the band is not jamming behind him.

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Guybrush

It's funny that you put quotation marks around this because that is not actually a quotation of what I wrote. I wrote "they have room for improvisation written into the song". By that I mean the composition as a whole may be musically defined except for some segments where the idea is specifically to improvise. Of course you don't write down and define what you're going to improvise beforehand.

The reason I asked permission to make the sweeping statement is not because I fully believe in the sweeping statement with everything that comes with it. Rather, it was to provoke argument. You don't really have to explain to me that there are such things as occasional improvisation in prog rock bands. Believe it or not, I am actually aware of that. What I actually want to argue/find out is whether or not the level of organization of their music could be a way to distinguish jam bands from prog bands.

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mr dave

That's probable. As pretentious as this is going to sound have you ever had the opportunity to sit in and jam within an improvisational setting? I think having that experience really helps differentiate the nuances that distinguish the styles.

Like someone else mentioned there's definitely some common ground, especially during the creative / origin phase. I don't doubt that there are plenty of prog bands who've built their compositions from the results of improvised jams. I think the blurriness between the lines stems from prog groups who embrace chaos and atonal melodies inherent within most improved music into their compositions which results in their sound appealing to fans of both styles.

I think there also needs to be a distinction made between jam bands and improv bands. They're not quite the same, and while there's a healthy level of improvisation within jam bands that's not to say they're all completely off the cuff either.

Another thing I've noticed with jam bands is they tend to recycle a lot, like they'll play the same groove over and over to keep one particular song going and going so long as the people are enjoying it. It's like the scope and duration of the jam song is determined by the reaction of the listeners. With a prog band the length of a song isn't normally artificially extended to suit the mood of the crowd, it's just a long composition.

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