Prog Music v. Jam Music

TheBig3 · 05-16-2012, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Did you read the OP? This isn't a battle, just a conversation about the two styles' relationship to each other.

Anyway, on the topic: I think, while there is a lot of overlap, they're not the same thing. The big differentiator comes from the very core of these two styles I think, in that prog tends to lean in the direction of being very meticulous plotted music while jam music is, by it's very nature, improvisational. Is basically like the difference between classical music and jazz, which is kind of fitting since prog tends to be more classically influences while jam is more jazz influenced.

if you're created a chart of relationships, how would these 4 genres and metal all connect? I've heard a few people comment here on how Metal is a sort of nexus of Classical and Jazz.

I was listening to Wings for Marie pt. 2 yesterday, and the common riffs and melodies that come back into the song after 3 minutes just struck me as something a jam band might do. Am I crazy or is there something there that links these bands more securely than their fans might suggest.

**Janszoon** · 05-16-2012, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3

if you're created a chart of relationships, how would these 4 genres and metal all connect? I've heard a few people comment here on how Metal is a sort of nexus of Classical and Jazz.

I was listening to Wings for Marie pt. 2 yesterday, and the common riffs and melodies that come back into the song after 3 minutes just struck me as something a jam band might do. Am I crazy or is there something there that links these bands more securely than their fans might suggest.

I'd say metal is more like the nexus of classical and rock, or maybe classical and blues. Jazz had very little influence on metal at the root level imo, though there have certainly been some great examples of metal bands incorporating jazz into their sound over the years.

TheBig3 · 05-16-2012, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I'd say metal is more like the nexus of classical and rock, or maybe classical and blues. Jazz had very little influence on metal at the root level imo, though there have certainly been some great examples of metal bands incorporating jazz into their sound over the years.

Well I didn't mean influence, I more mean how it can be (metal) as improvisational as Jazz.

Metal may have been an evolution coming out of Rock, but only from a loud, angry, or abrasive aspect.

I don't think Blues has much of a relationship with modern metal as does Jazz or Classical, no?

**Janszoon** · 05-16-2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3

Well I didn't mean influence, I more mean how it can be (metal) as improvisational as Jazz.

I think metal that's as improvisational as jazz is a very rare thing, it's certainly not a defining feature of metal like it is with jazz. If anything, I'd say metal is know for being very structured.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3

Metal may have been an evolution coming out of Rock, but only from a loud, angry, or abrasive aspect.

I don't think Blues has much of a relationship with modern metal as does Jazz or Classical, no?

Depends on the type of metal. Doom metal, which is the oldest branch of the metal tree certainly has a strong blues influence. Sludge as well. What types of metal do you feel have a strong jazz influence?

mr dave · 05-16-2012, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3

Would you say that Prog and Jam are the same thing? Do they subscribe to the same ethos even if bands we call Prog or Jam doesn't sound like one another?

I think that's like saying your hand and your foot are the same thing because they both have 5 appendages.

Ultimately based on my own definitions of both Prog and Jam music, I'd say no, they're not the same beasts at all. While the outsider listening in through the walls might not be able to tell the difference, a focused listener should be able to recognize the distinctions.

As most of the others have mentioned it boils down to intent. The prog band intends to lead the listener on an aural trip, it's a guaranteed journey, it will happen at this show, and it will happen again at the next one. The jam band may well lead the listener on an aural trip, but it's a unique occurrence, it just happens and if you happen to be in the crowd that night when it was truly magical then great, but it's not going to happen again at the next show.

Guybrush · 05-16-2012, 09:32 AM

I know there are going to be many exceptions to this, but I feel that progressive rock is generally composed. Someone sat down and thought it should go like this and this and then there's a different theme here .. Think ELP's Tarkus, anything from Gentle Giant, Yes, National Health and so on. When there is improvisation, it's often because room for improvisation was written into the song.

Jamming is a different approach to music, although of course it is an approach that prog bands as well as all other bands might use to come up with interesting stuff to put into their compositions.

edit :

Ehf, most music is composed. I mean more elaborately composed than the average tune you might hear on the radio, like a Frank Zappa song might be (ex. "Montana"). I believe Dave Stewart from National Health would require his band mates to play his (ambitious) compositions exactly as he wrote them down to the smallest detail.

Unknown Soldier · 05-16-2012, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cledussnow

I never mentioned "noodling". I didn't mean to imply that.

Let me put it this way: A band like Phish is WAY more like sitting around a campfire, or being at a party, whereas many of the Prog bands are more like being in a theater or some much more "proper" setting.

I don't know if that is any clearer really, but it's the best I could come up with...

Noodling around the campfire sounds very much like Phish. Now I'm not attacking jam bands there but they do noodle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3

if you're created a chart of relationships, how would these 4 genres and metal all connect? I've heard a few people comment here on how Metal is a sort of nexus of Classical and Jazz.

Talking of relationship charts, I'm surprised the psychedelic genre hasn't been mentioned yet, as this is the link between both prog and jam bands in the late 1960s. Folk was another element certainly with the San Francisco scene bands of that era as well. Now I'm seeing on these posts, that jazz is being being attributed as an influence on jam bands, well jazz was just as important on prog as well, The Canterbury Scene was dominated by the Soft Machine and Caravan two bands that had a big jazz influence, also King Crimson went through a jazzy spell as well. Of all the major music genres that were popular in the late 1960s its actually blues that has the least impact on either prog or jam bands (and I'm talking about traditional prog acts there) Most of the acts that were influenced by blues rock were normally hard rock acts and some of these hard rock acts like for example Uriah Heep and Lucifer's Friend basically mixed hard rock with prog rock whilst retaining a very bluesy feel, but your traditional prog bands steered clear of the blues. I think it was Janszoon that mentioned sludge metal and the blues correlation, well the obvious link there are bands like Black Sabbath and the lesser known Bang etc but apart from that, blues and metal are not normally marriage made in heaven.

**Janszoon** · 05-16-2012, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Most of the acts that were influenced by blues rock were normally hard rock acts and some of these hard rock acts like for example Uriah Heep and Lucifer's Friend basically mixed hard rock with prog rock whilst retaining a very bluesy feel, but your traditional prog bands steered clear of the blues. I think it was Janszoon that mentioned sludge metal and the blues correlation, well the obvious link there are bands like Black Sabbath and the lesser known Bang etc but apart from that, blues and metal are not normally marriage made in heaven.

I wasn't talking marrying metal and blues, I was saying that blues was one of metal's ancestors.

Unknown Soldier · 05-16-2012, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I wasn't talking marrying metal and blues, I was saying that blues was one of metal's ancestors.

I know you wasn't and my remark was just confirming that the combination of the two usually doesn't go down that well, unless the artist knows exactly what they're doing.

TheBig3 · 05-16-2012, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

I know you wasn't and my remark was just confirming that the combination of the two usually doesn't go down that well, unless the artist knows exactly what they're doing.

Oh man. I don't usually point out bad grammar but that was like a sucker punch to the ribs.

05-16-2012, 09:32 AM	#16 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	I know there are going to be many exceptions to this, but I feel that progressive rock is generally composed. Someone sat down and thought it should go like this and this and then there's a different theme here .. Think ELP's Tarkus, anything from Gentle Giant, Yes, National Health and so on. When there is improvisation, it's often because room for improvisation was written into the song. Jamming is a different approach to music, although of course it is an approach that prog bands as well as all other bands might use to come up with interesting stuff to put into their compositions. edit : Ehf, most music is composed. I mean more elaborately composed than the average tune you might hear on the radio, like a Frank Zappa song might be (ex. "Montana"). I believe Dave Stewart from National Health would require his band mates to play his (ambitious) compositions exactly as he wrote them down to the smallest detail. __________________ Something Completely Different Last edited by Guybrush; 05-16-2012 at 10:23 AM.