The Evolution of Music: Accident, or Adaptation?

starrynight · 12-26-2011, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoonlitSunshine

I definitely believe that if someone is primarily a lyricist and not a "musician", then it's really accompanied poetry rather than music.
.

And generally I definitely prefer poetry on it's own than accompanied with music, the best poetry doesn't need propping up with something else.

And as for the human species, it's a mere speck in the universe. I think it's part of the ignorance and arrogance (which reinforce one another) that has made humans think over centuries that we are somehow the centre of everything.

blankety blank · 12-26-2011, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

I've read about near death experiences and there is still absolutely no way it proves anything one way or another. Anything experienced in that time could be considered a hallucination considering the brain is flooded with DMT at the time of death.

I've got a very direct question for you. How does this relate to the evolution of music? This question requires absolutely no metaphorical or metaphysical rambling, so consider this a challenge to deliver a post that all of us can understand.

How does this relate to the evolution of music?

It doesn't exactly. Lyrically yes. Musically not a chance.

Sorry if I offended you, or if you considered it rambling.

Just consider it a hallucination.

steve

duga · 12-26-2011, 08:30 PM

No offense taken. I've just seen several direct questions posed to you and the responses are all very verbose, so I wanted to see if you could answer clearly and concisely or if your extravagant posts are simply a cover up for a lack of substance.

I apologize if this seems harsh, but your posts warranted it.

blankety blank · 12-26-2011, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

No offense taken. I've just seen several direct questions posed to you and the responses are all very verbose, so I wanted to see if you could answer clearly and concisely or if your extravagant posts are simply a cover up for a lack of substance.

I apologize if this seems harsh, but your posts warranted it.

Sorry, I did not realize that my posts were all that extravagant. Vague I will agree, but, I do not wish to write a book.

So, in the context of evolution, let me ask.

Do you believe that the human mind is capable of any sort of 'psychic' phenomenon?

If a single strand of DNA can contain the entire genetic code, what do you think the mind is capable of, or is limited by?

Do you think it is capable of telepathic communication?

Do you think that there is anything that manipulate the human thought process, other than in a hallucinogenic manner?

If your computer screen had eyes, and you were looking at its left eye; which eye is looking back at you? Is a mirror image a hallucination?

What song am I going to post?

You can then feel free to ask me any direct question that you would like me to answer directly, and I will be happy to oblige. As precisely, and in as brief a manner as possible. Fair enough?

Right. Life of Illusion - Joe Walsh. How did you guess?

Great Video BTW.

peace

steve

ThePhanastasio · 12-27-2011, 12:56 AM

I'm sorry, but I'm just completely irritated by the implication posed that music may have metaphysical qualities.

I feel that demeans individuality and the pursuit of expression, and don't think that metaphysical mumbo-jumbo comes into play.

Metaphysics is just a lazy (if not somewhat pseudo-intellectual) way of saying you don't understand something.

blankety blank · 12-27-2011, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePhanastasio

I'm sorry, but I'm just completely irritated by the implication posed that music may have metaphysical qualities.

I feel that demeans individuality and the pursuit of expression, and don't think that metaphysical mumbo-jumbo comes into play.

Metaphysics is just a lazy (if not somewhat pseudo-intellectual) way of saying you don't understand something.

Completely irritated? Completely? Seriously?

Sorry I irritated you so much.

I beat myself upside the head for you.

Or, do you prefer an arsenal?

I'm not a pseudo-intellectual. I'm not an intellectual at all. Or, a meta physicist.

But, I am not lazy. And, I do understand some things. But, I will not insult your intelligence.

They don't have any nuclear smilies, and, I'd hate to make you angrier.

Do they super-size mumbo at the Aristotle cafe now?

I wasn't talking about the music. It's the Words my friend.

The Who Quadrophenia comes to mind. Pete Townshend asked the question.

All said with a big smiley. So, keep that in mind please?

peace

steve

Salami · 12-27-2011, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveeden888

steve

"This video is not available in your country"

Seriously, the Who were from England, for God's sake! Why are they being racist!!!!!???

Anyway, to look at your previous post:

Quote:

Do you believe that the human mind is capable of any sort of 'psychic' phenomenon?

I haven't found any really convincing evidence for that yet. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am currently skeptical.

Quote:

If a single strand of DNA can contain the entire genetic code, what do you think the mind

is capable of, or is limited by?

I don't quite see how the first part of this leads on to the second...!
But asking about the mind's limitations, I must point out that evolution rarely ever produces the "optimal" or "perfect" solution to any limitation. That would be so specialized that the result would be destroyed by the smallest environmental change. As soon as there is something that "works," selection pressure falls fast.

Quote:

Do you think it is capable of telepathic communication?

Do you think that there is anything that manipulate the human thought process, other than in a hallucinogenic manner?

Assuming that you're referring to the effects of chemicals, then of course the thought process is effected by other factors.
People who are conditioned to think in a particular way, either by strict political or strict religious environments will view the world completely differently.
I know that you already know that, but the principle is the same: thought processes are effected by the circumstance as much as anything else.

Quote:

If your computer screen had eyes, and you were looking at its left eye; which eye is looking back at you? Is a mirror image a hallucination?

Errr.....

blankety blank · 12-27-2011, 06:37 AM

Mighty Salami;1137510]"This video is not available in your country"

Quote:

Seriously, the Who were from England, for God's sake! Why are they being racist!!!!!???

That is strange. I think they still are from England. I saw them in Ohio about 4 years ago with my son. Maybe they moved

Anyway, to look at your previous post:

Quote:

I haven't found any really convincing evidence for that yet. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am currently skeptical.

I have to believe it. Or, I'm nuts, one or the other. I was sort of astral yanked by the hair, and, shown a freaky vision. No drugs involved.

Have you ever had one of those little whispers of thought that you wonder about? They usually are a warning type, not to do something you are about to do. You ignore it, and, do it anyway? Bad sh*t happens. I think everyone has had one or a hundred of those.

It was me telling you

Quote:

I don't quite see how the first part of this leads on to the second...!
But asking about the mind's limitations, I must point out that evolution rarely ever produces the "optimal" or "perfect" solution to any limitation. That would be so specialized that the result would be destroyed by the smallest environmental change. As soon as there is something that "works," selection pressure falls fast.

It didn't. I just threw it out of left field. I guess we will have to wait and see on that one. If we don't blow ourselves up first.

Quote:

Assuming that you're referring to the effects of chemicals, then of course the thought process is effected by other factors.
People who are conditioned to think in a particular way, either by strict political or strict religious environments will view the world completely differently.
I know that you already know that, but the principle is the same: thought processes are effected by the circumstance as much as anything else.

classic classical conditioning in an operant fashion. The way of the world. I was referring more to the subconscious thought producers that I am certain exist. I cannot explain exactly how it works, but, I know we pick up transmissions from somewhere that is not located in the frontal lobe.

I can't explain it, it has to be experienced to understand. Or, even experienced and not understood completely. The little family feud that goes on inside our little minds is part of it.

Or, if I try, I'll irritate the hell out of someone for talking metaphysics, and archetypes. The monad can drive you mad

Quote:

Errr.....

I agree. It's late, or early I suppose. I have insomnia, and have been up all night. Sorry for being a bit goofy

Here is my favorite Who song. My theme song. I used to sing it in karaoke bars.

peace.....I hope you get this one.

steve

~~Rubato~~ · 12-27-2011, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveeden888

Have you ever had one of those little whispers of thought that you wonder about? They usually are a warning type, not to do something you are about to do. You ignore it, and, do it anyway? Bad sh*t happens. I think everyone has had one or a hundred of those.

It was me telling you

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveeden888

classic classical conditioning in an operant fashion. The way of the world. I was referring more to the subconscious thought producers that I am certain exist. I cannot explain exactly how it works, but, I know we pick up transmissions from somewhere that is not located in the frontal lobe.

I mean no disrespect but ...do you...are you one for wearing tin foil hats?

Salami · 12-27-2011, 06:52 AM

No, that one doesn't work either.
"This video is not available in your country"
I know the song though, so don't worry.

Quote:

I can't explain it, it has to be experienced to understand. Or, even experienced and not understood completely. The little family feud that goes on inside our little minds is part of it.

Or, if I try, I'll irritate the hell out of someone for talking metaphysics, and archetypes. The monad can drive you mad

Would you be offended if I say that I don't have a clue what you mean?
And I think we are a little side tracked from discussing Letvin's book:

Quote:

"Music," Pinker lectured us, "pushes buttons for language ability (with which music overlaps in several ways); it pushes buttons in the auditory cortex, the system that responds to the emotional signals in a human voice crying or cooing, and the motor control system that injects rhythm into the muscles when walking or dancing."

"As far as biological cause and effect are concerned," Pinker wrote in The Language Instinct (and paraphrased in the talk he gave to us), "music is useless. It shows no signs of design for attaining a goal such as long life, grandchildren, or accurate perception and prediction of the world. Compared with language, vision, reasoning, and physical know-how, music could vanish from our species and the rest of our lifestyle would be virtually unchanged."
I [Levitin] happen to think that Pinker is wrong, but I'll let the evidence speak for itself. Let me back up first a hundred and fifty years to Charles Darwin... Might music play a role in sexual selection? Darwin thought so. In The Descent of Man he wrote, "I conclude that musical notes and rhythm were first acquired by the male or female progenitors of mankind for the sake of charming the opposite sex. Thus musical tones became firmly associated with some of the strongest passions an animal is capable of feeling, and are consequently used instinctively..." In seeking mates, our innate drive is to find--either consciously or unconsciously--someone who is biologically and sexually fit, someone who will provide us with children who are likely to be healthy and able to attract mates of their own. Music may indicate biological and sexual fitness, serving to attract mates.

Just to jog everyone's memory...

12-26-2011, 08:30 PM	#193 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	No offense taken. I've just seen several direct questions posed to you and the responses are all very verbose, so I wanted to see if you could answer clearly and concisely or if your extravagant posts are simply a cover up for a lack of substance. I apologize if this seems harsh, but your posts warranted it. __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

12-27-2011, 12:56 AM	#195 (permalink)
ThePhanastasio Killed Laura Palmer Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Ashland, KY Posts: 1,679	I'm sorry, but I'm just completely irritated by the implication posed that music may have metaphysical qualities. I feel that demeans individuality and the pursuit of expression, and don't think that metaphysical mumbo-jumbo comes into play. Metaphysics is just a lazy (if not somewhat pseudo-intellectual) way of saying you don't understand something. __________________ Phish: Studio Discography Reviewed 100 Albums I Heartily Recommend My last.fm It's a hand-me-down, the thoughts are broken Perhaps they're better left unsung