The Evolution of Music: Accident, or Adaptation?

mr dave · 12-14-2011, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

When reading your post and thoughts like these, I can't help think again that music needs to be properly defined in order to facilitate this discussion in a proper way, even if that definition isn't like the standard one. The standard definition, according to this thread, is that sound is organized sound. That makes music incredibly hard to differentiate from language which is, basically, organized sound. (Side note : also biologically, it makes sense that the part of our brain that deals with language (organized sound) will help us understand music (organized sound).)

Generally speaking, I would like to disagree with you and say that newborn babies don't make music. The problem doing so is again the definition which I feel makes stuff like crying a grey area. I don't like to think of it as music. Although children certainly learn to manipulate adults with crying, the first time it happens, it is a purely instinctual act with no intentional design behind it. When they're not crying, the sounds they make may be trying to learn how to talk. All healthy humans are capable of spoken language. Not all humans are very musical. For example, all healthy adult humans can retell a simple sentence that they've heard, but not all can hum a tune they just heard. Language is a much better way to communicate, a more generally human skill and is more crucial to our survival.

I think for the purposes of such discussion, music could be defined as a deliberate, artistic act using sound for example. It's not necessarily much better, but it helps separate music and language I think.

Agreed on the need to define the elements. Though I've got no real research or factual evidence to back up my theories, they're just my deeeeep thoughts hahaha (BTW - I took your advice and totally got hooked on Minecraft

)

For myself I was thinking more in terms of the sounds babies make when they're happy and content, the random burrrrrRRRrrr yaAAA awwweeeeiiIIIIIiiiii sounds and stuff. At this point we recognize it more as the early development of the spoken language but I think it's also reflective of a more base level of communication all humans were once attached too, which I consider to be a musical expression. The crying you mention and the subsequent manipulation behind, I'd say is completely opposite of music and very much evidence of using higher forms of mental communication / manipulation to attempt to satisfy their wants.

In my mind music is a perpetual duality, it's like you need to apply all the faculties of your conscious mind to learn how to do it, but then need to suspend them all while you actually make it happen. It's like a meditative exercise and babies by virtue of not having developed the higher functions to distract them from the base abilities are able to tap into that music.

To be honest I'm finding it hard / limiting to agree to that proposed definition of music above mainly because by categorizing music as something high minded as deliberately artistic vs. something basic as language makes it pretty much impossible to consider music coming first. It's kind of hard to be deliberately artistic without first knowing how to read or write, and it's probably pretty hard to learn how to read or write without speaking first - but anyone can feel a beat and move to it.

Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra · 12-15-2011, 08:38 AM

I always liked the "the corporealization of the intelligence that is in sounds" motto of Edgard Varese.

Essentially, it means that music is intelligent thought manifested through sound. Not necessarily a singular language, but definitely a form of communication.

Another interesting one from Iannis Xenakis: "Music is not a language. Any musical piece is akin to a boulder with complex forms, with striations and engraved designs atop and within, which men can decipher in a thousand different ways without ever finding the right answer or the best one,"

Salami · 12-15-2011, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

I always liked the "the corporealization of the intelligence that is in sounds" motto of Edgard Varese.

Essentially, it means that music is intelligent thought manifested through sound. Not necessarily a singular language, but definitely a form of communication.

I'm personally in favour of establishing a distinction between "communication" and "expression".

And you like Varese so much you have him as your avatar!

~~Rubato~~ · 12-15-2011, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mighty Salami

I'm personally in favour of establishing a distinction between "communication" and "expression".

why? is expression not essentially a more primitive form of communication?

Salami · 12-15-2011, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubato

why? is expression not essentially a more primitive form of communication?

I disagree. Communication can include things as mundane as writing software or programming, and can be purely relative to the information. Expression to me has the attribute of being personal, and far more relative to the writer. I think that "expression" is a lot more refined than basic communication.

However, I don't think that this is particularly on topic, nor is Ska's avatar, so I think we ought to reconsider the evolutionary aspect of music.

SIRIUSB · 12-15-2011, 11:54 AM

Here is the accepted answer among the science community to our OP

Music and dance co-evolved biologically and culturally to serve as a technology for social bonding, they (music & dance) originated through biological evolution of brain chemistry, interacting with cultural evolution of behavior. In simpler terms, Trance Induction.

Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra · 12-15-2011, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mighty Salami

And you like Varese so much you have him as your avatar!

Varese is awesome, he empowers me to be moody, and temperamental about experimental music.

Salami · 12-15-2011, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

Varese is awesome, he empowers me to be moody, and temperamental about experimental music.

I don't know what he empowers me to do!

I think I'm more prepared to be open minded towards experimental music through him. Not grumpy, though!

Edgar Varése: Poème électronique (1958) - YouTube

blastingas10 · 12-15-2011, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubato

why? is expression not essentially a more primitive form of communication?

I think you're right. Primitive being the key word there. Back before computer programming and spoken language, expression was communication.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIRIUSB

Here is the accepted answer among the science community to our OP

Music and dance co-evolved biologically and culturally to serve as a technology for social bonding, they (music & dance) originated through biological evolution of brain chemistry, interacting with cultural evolution of behavior. In simpler terms, Trance Induction.

There may be some truth to this, but I think this definition isn't quite sufficient enough. I think there is something more to music than just social bonding, but maybe not; social bonding is a very important thing.

SIRIUSB · 12-15-2011, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastingas10

There may be some truth to this, but I think this definition isn't quite sufficient enough. I think there is something more to music than just social bonding, but maybe not; social bonding is a very important thing.

I was only replying to the 'origin' of music in humans. I too believe there is something way more to music than simply bonding.

12-15-2011, 11:54 AM	#166 (permalink)
SIRIUSB Luciferian Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 278	Here is the accepted answer among the science community to our OP Music and dance co-evolved biologically and culturally to serve as a technology for social bonding, they (music & dance) originated through biological evolution of brain chemistry, interacting with cultural evolution of behavior. In simpler terms, Trance Induction.