The Evolution of Music: Accident, or Adaptation?

SIRIUSB · 12-13-2011, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Tore: The book does mention that babies "sing" syllables as they are learning to form sounds, and the "singing" is part of exploring those sounds. I think Dave was more referring to the strings of baby babble than the crying (possibly the least musical sound I can think of).

Vanilla: I think what you've said is really valid, and haven't seen many people address women's role in music here.

Yep, babies sing 4ths & 5ths

Necromancer · 12-13-2011, 01:36 PM

Sound could refer to anything you hear: talking, whispering, noise from the Air Conditioner, etc.

Sound alone does not imply music or organized sound, music is a meaningful assembly of sound.

For example, sound is to paint, like music is to artwork.

Guybrush · 12-13-2011, 01:54 PM

My point was not so much that babies don't sing, but more that the discussion might be more interesting if one could separate spoken language from music just for the sake of this discussion. Now I suspect explaining why I think so is gonna be a bit difficult and ultimately fruitless

I personally am still of the opinion that music piggybacked language (noone's provided a good counter argument that I've seen) and so I personally don't find it weird or contradictory that language and music is mixed in our evolutionary history. But anyone making an argument that musical skill has started to become a distinct trait from language which is being selected for on it's own terms may find it useful to have a way to describe that music with a definition that does not automatically include normal language which, as I wrote, all adult healthy humans are capable of.

Anyways, I'll leave that discussion for them.

blastingas10 · 12-13-2011, 02:20 PM

I often listen to birds "singing" for musical inspiration. I like to pay attention to their phrasing, they're pretty good at it. However, I'm not sure if I would consider it music. In a broad sense, it certainly is music; but I think it qualifies as language. Birds have no other means of communication, "singing" is their language. If they communicated in a different manner, and then "sung" when they were trying to find a mate, then I would consider them as musicians. But as far as I know, their "singing" is their only means of communication so, that qualifies it is language IMO.

But isn't music a source of communication as well?

ThePhanastasio · 12-13-2011, 02:40 PM

I really believe that music - along with any other form of expression employed by humans - is just a means of making sense of the world and things within it. Speech was ordering sounds together, finding generally recognized combinations of said sounds, and making sense of them. Music is more complex ultimately than speech and language, however, because it frequently employs sounds both man-made and external, humans organizing these sounds outside of themselves to further expression.

I feel that it's certainly an adaptation, not so much an accident. Humans legitimately wanted to string things together in a way they perceived as being logical, utilizing this for their own expression to go beyond simple speech patterns and body language. It's ingenuitive, a way to express oneself where words fail, using external influences to convey the internal message - a means of more broad expression.

SIRIUSB · 12-13-2011, 02:50 PM

Music is considered the closest artform to our empathetic self, it is not a 'model' of any emotion like other artforms are, but rather is directly the emotional feeling.
Music is certainly a form of communication.

Music, for Schopenhauer, was the purest form of art because it was the one that depicted the will itself without it appearing as subject to the Principle of Sufficient Grounds, therefore as an individual object. Schopenhauer thought that music was the only art that did not merely copy ideas, but actually embodied the will itself.

"Why is music called the divine art, while all other arts are not so called? We may certainly see God in all arts and in all sciences, but in music alone we see God free from all forms and thoughts. In every other art there is idolatry. Every thought, every word has its form. Sound alone is free from form. Every word of poetry forms a picture in our mind. Sound alone does not make any object appear before us." - Hazrat Inayat Khan (Indian Sufi Master and virtuoso musician).

Necromancer · 12-13-2011, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

My point was not so much that babies don't sing, but more that the discussion might be more interesting if one could separate spoken language from music just for the sake of this discussion. Now I suspect explaining why I think so is gonna be a bit difficult and ultimately fruitless

I personally am still of the opinion that music piggybacked language (noone's provided a good counter argument that I've seen) and so I personally don't find it weird or contradictory that language and music is mixed in our evolutionary history. But anyone making an argument that musical skill has started to become a distinct trait from language which is being selected for on it's own terms may find it useful to have a way to describe that music with a definition that does not automatically include normal language which, as I wrote, all adult healthy humans are capable of.

Anyways, I'll leave that discussion for them.

I don't want to over my head here tore, but I do understand basically where your coming from. And I agree that there has to be a connection between Language and music itself. My guess would be that from the beginning, both language and music might have developed together at the same time. For how ever long, until language overtook making high pitched noises, etc. or however people first communicated between/with each other. For simple language is a trait that most all people possess (as you've already pointed out) compared to having the gift for music. But as far as a way to describe music with a definition that does not automatically include normal language, I don't know?

One thought that keeps coming to mind (as I try to make some kind of coherent paragraph that makes any sense at all)

Is "Rap", which is more of a form of language, other than singing?

I hope, that at least some of this makes sense.

starrynight · 12-13-2011, 03:04 PM

On language and music I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned the fact that some languages actually use different tones or pitch to convey meaning (Thai and Chinese for example). I definitely don't think music developed later than complex language communication. Music itself is quite a basic way of communicating through pure sound rather than a complex word-object relationship and would have been one of the earlier forms of communicating I think along with hand signals etc. Sound used to express basic feelings like joy, grief. If these were then expressed in a more individual way then it might have been seen as intrinsic to that early human and so more creative.

ThePhanastasio · 12-13-2011, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starrynight

On language and music I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned the fact that some languages actually use different tones or pitch to convey meaning (Thai and Chinese for example). I definitely don't think music developed later than complex language communication. Music itself is quite a basic way of communicating through pure sound rather than a complex word-object relationship and would have been one of the earlier forms of communicating I think along with hand signals etc. Sound used to express basic feelings like joy, grief. If these were then expressed in a more individual way then it might have been seen as intrinsic to that early human and so more creative.

Even the English language does this. That's a part of the context of what is said. One could be asked, "Do you want to go to the store?" and the response could be "Yeah, sure," but it could be meant sarcastically, literally, enthusiastically, etc.

And yes, I do agree with the music being used to express basic emotions. I feel like ultimately, it's still got a long way to go. One can listen to a song and be like, "Oh, this song is happy" based on the sound, but it's still ultimately simplistic in terms of its true potential. It's more supplementary expression in addition to speech than a stand alone sort of expression.

SIRIUSB · 12-13-2011, 03:39 PM

Lately I have been looking for work in the film industry composing what not, next time you watch a good thriller pay attention to how the composer leads you from scene to scene, sets you up psychologically for frightening scene, fools you into thinking something else is about to happen, delivers emotions that are not happening on the screen at the time, or already have taken place.

These aspects of music are of great interest to me, they resonate with my occult practices and they also communicate on a grand scale.

12-13-2011, 01:54 PM	#153 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	My point was not so much that babies don't sing, but more that the discussion might be more interesting if one could separate spoken language from music just for the sake of this discussion. Now I suspect explaining why I think so is gonna be a bit difficult and ultimately fruitless I personally am still of the opinion that music piggybacked language (noone's provided a good counter argument that I've seen) and so I personally don't find it weird or contradictory that language and music is mixed in our evolutionary history. But anyone making an argument that musical skill has started to become a distinct trait from language which is being selected for on it's own terms may find it useful to have a way to describe that music with a definition that does not automatically include normal language which, as I wrote, all adult healthy humans are capable of. Anyways, I'll leave that discussion for them. __________________ Something Completely Different

12-13-2011, 02:20 PM	#154 (permalink)
blastingas10 Music Addict Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2,126	I often listen to birds "singing" for musical inspiration. I like to pay attention to their phrasing, they're pretty good at it. However, I'm not sure if I would consider it music. In a broad sense, it certainly is music; but I think it qualifies as language. Birds have no other means of communication, "singing" is their language. If they communicated in a different manner, and then "sung" when they were trying to find a mate, then I would consider them as musicians. But as far as I know, their "singing" is their only means of communication so, that qualifies it is language IMO. But isn't music a source of communication as well? Last edited by blastingas10; 12-13-2011 at 02:26 PM.

12-13-2011, 02:40 PM	#155 (permalink)
ThePhanastasio Killed Laura Palmer Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Ashland, KY Posts: 1,679	I really believe that music - along with any other form of expression employed by humans - is just a means of making sense of the world and things within it. Speech was ordering sounds together, finding generally recognized combinations of said sounds, and making sense of them. Music is more complex ultimately than speech and language, however, because it frequently employs sounds both man-made and external, humans organizing these sounds outside of themselves to further expression. I feel that it's certainly an adaptation, not so much an accident. Humans legitimately wanted to string things together in a way they perceived as being logical, utilizing this for their own expression to go beyond simple speech patterns and body language. It's ingenuitive, a way to express oneself where words fail, using external influences to convey the internal message - a means of more broad expression. __________________ Phish: Studio Discography Reviewed 100 Albums I Heartily Recommend My last.fm It's a hand-me-down, the thoughts are broken Perhaps they're better left unsung

12-13-2011, 03:04 PM	#158 (permalink)
starrynight Music Addict Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 937	On language and music I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned the fact that some languages actually use different tones or pitch to convey meaning (Thai and Chinese for example). I definitely don't think music developed later than complex language communication. Music itself is quite a basic way of communicating through pure sound rather than a complex word-object relationship and would have been one of the earlier forms of communicating I think along with hand signals etc. Sound used to express basic feelings like joy, grief. If these were then expressed in a more individual way then it might have been seen as intrinsic to that early human and so more creative. __________________ non-cliquey member of every music forum I participate on

12-13-2011, 01:36 PM	#152 (permalink)
Necromancer Divination Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,655	Sound could refer to anything you hear: talking, whispering, noise from the Air Conditioner, etc. Sound alone does not imply music or organized sound, music is a meaningful assembly of sound. For example, sound is to paint, like music is to artwork.

12-13-2011, 02:50 PM	#156 (permalink)
SIRIUSB Luciferian Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 278	Music is considered the closest artform to our empathetic self, it is not a 'model' of any emotion like other artforms are, but rather is directly the emotional feeling. Music is certainly a form of communication. Music, for Schopenhauer, was the purest form of art because it was the one that depicted the will itself without it appearing as subject to the Principle of Sufficient Grounds, therefore as an individual object. Schopenhauer thought that music was the only art that did not merely copy ideas, but actually embodied the will itself. "Why is music called the divine art, while all other arts are not so called? We may certainly see God in all arts and in all sciences, but in music alone we see God free from all forms and thoughts. In every other art there is idolatry. Every thought, every word has its form. Sound alone is free from form. Every word of poetry forms a picture in our mind. Sound alone does not make any object appear before us." - Hazrat Inayat Khan (Indian Sufi Master and virtuoso musician).

12-13-2011, 03:39 PM	#160 (permalink)
SIRIUSB Luciferian Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 278	Lately I have been looking for work in the film industry composing what not, next time you watch a good thriller pay attention to how the composer leads you from scene to scene, sets you up psychologically for frightening scene, fools you into thinking something else is about to happen, delivers emotions that are not happening on the screen at the time, or already have taken place. These aspects of music are of great interest to me, they resonate with my occult practices and they also communicate on a grand scale.