New Vinyl Releases - Are They Really Worth It?

Chives · 11-24-2011, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_k

Most modern day digital studio's record in 192khz 24 bit. Which is an awful lot more than CD, obviously.

Are you of the opinion that if we had a better digital-based format and if our standard for digital recordings were much higher, it could be a viable alternative to analog recordings? I always figured at some point there wouldn't any audible difference.

lucifer_sam · 11-24-2011, 11:06 PM

There's always going to be a difference.

The analog medium itself is responsible for a lot of the warmth to vinyl. It is very difficult to accurately model this elastodynamic behavior using a single comprehensive algorithm. Dither is used in digital signal processing to replicate a lot of the randomness that's found in analog recordings, but it has limitations in how effectively it can reproduce those results.

It's super complicated and way more math than even I care to explore, but suffice to say this is one hurdle signal processing technology isn't going to "catch up to."

EDIT: I remember a professor mentioning that DTA converters could conceivably replicate the full analog signal, but they require the Cardinal series (more math!) to perform it and as of yet there isn't a practical way to apply that.

s_k · 11-25-2011, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chives

Are you of the opinion that if we had a better digital-based format and if our standard for digital recordings were much higher, it could be a viable alternative to analog recordings? I always figured at some point there wouldn't any audible difference.

I never really did a serious comparison. What I can say is that when I record a proper piece of vinyl to my PC in 16 bit 44.100, it's ruined. It just sounds like a CD with some background noise. There's no reason for wanting to do that.
But when I set my soundcard to 192khz 24 bit, the difference is a lot smaller. The record still has a bit more 'space' between the instruments, but that could also be caused by the fact that my soundcard just isn't any better (it's a nice ESI Juli@, but there's definitely better ones out there).

Long story short; If CD's were recorded in 192khz 24 bit, I wouldn't hate them so much. They probably wouldn't be better than vinyl records, but at least it would be listenable.

s_k · 11-25-2011, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucifer_sam

The analog medium itself is responsible for a lot of the warmth to vinyl.

Nah, don't really agree on that one. It's the same story with tubes or tape.
If my tube amp sounded warm, I'd have thrown it out. If my tapedecks sound warmer than the source. I can genuinely say that my CD current CD player (A Denon I borrowed as my Myryad needs a new laser

) sounds warmer than my record player. My record player is really honest. Sometimes a bit too honest. Bad recordings sound awful on it.

Vinyl, tubes or tape shouldn't have to sound warmer than a digital recording. A proper phono cardridge has a waaay wider frequency range than a CD player does. When the record is made properly, a vinyl record should be able to produce a sound just as 'straight forward' as a CD does.
Same goes for tape. A proper tape deck does 15 to 25000hz in a straight line. No reason to believe that a tape should sound warmer than the source.

It does have a certain 'roundness' or 'smoothness' if you will, but that's only in comparison to a CD, which lacks smoothness

duotone · 11-25-2011, 07:04 AM

I dont have any vinyls personally, but I remember reading that Arcade Fires THE SUBURBS album was recorded on analog, to create a warm sound. Then these were mastered onto cd.

Not sure how much of an effect this would have to the overall sound though?

s_k · 11-25-2011, 07:25 AM

Well usually creating a 'warm' sound is nothing but distortion.
I don't know why bands keep bragging on about warm analog recording, as it isn't

duotone · 11-25-2011, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_k

Well usually creating a 'warm' sound is nothing but distortion.
I don't know why bands keep bragging on about warm analog recording, as it isn't

So its cold then?

s_k · 11-25-2011, 08:15 AM

Haha, well it's equal to the source if everything goes well

lucifer_sam · 11-25-2011, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_k

Nah, don't really agree on that one. It's the same story with tubes or tape.
If my tube amp sounded warm, I'd have thrown it out. If my tapedecks sound warmer than the source. I can genuinely say that my CD current CD player (A Denon I borrowed as my Myryad needs a new laser

) sounds warmer than my record player. My record player is really honest. Sometimes a bit too honest. Bad recordings sound awful on it.

Vinyl, tubes or tape shouldn't have to sound warmer than a digital recording. A proper phono cardridge has a waaay wider frequency range than a CD player does. When the record is made properly, a vinyl record should be able to produce a sound just as 'straight forward' as a CD does.
Same goes for tape. A proper tape deck does 15 to 25000hz in a straight line. No reason to believe that a tape should sound warmer than the source.

It does have a certain 'roundness' or 'smoothness' if you will, but that's only in comparison to a CD, which lacks smoothness

Please read my original post in this thread. I won't say you're downright wrong but you're missing the thread to my point entirely.

There are legitimate reasons why I said that...it's an effect that can't be reproduced using other analog media like cassettes or 8-trac tapes.

s_k · 11-25-2011, 11:09 AM

Well, to answer your question then;
Most vinyl releases still sound better than CD's, imo. But not all.
I've got some records that sound worse than the CD. For example... The last Shadow Puppets' Age of the Understatement or, an older one, Dire Straits' On Every Street.

It has to be said though that this is often 'user error' by the company that produced the vinyl record and not a shortcoming of the medium itself.

11-24-2011, 11:06 PM	#22 (permalink)
lucifer_sam Unrepentant Ass-Mod Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3,921	There's always going to be a difference. The analog medium itself is responsible for a lot of the warmth to vinyl. It is very difficult to accurately model this elastodynamic behavior using a single comprehensive algorithm. Dither is used in digital signal processing to replicate a lot of the randomness that's found in analog recordings, but it has limitations in how effectively it can reproduce those results. It's super complicated and way more math than even I care to explore, but suffice to say this is one hurdle signal processing technology isn't going to "catch up to." EDIT: I remember a professor mentioning that DTA converters could conceivably replicate the full analog signal, but they require the Cardinal series (more math!) to perform it and as of yet there isn't a practical way to apply that. __________________ first.am

11-25-2011, 07:25 AM	#26 (permalink)
s_k Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,206	Well usually creating a 'warm' sound is nothing but distortion. I don't know why bands keep bragging on about warm analog recording, as it isn't __________________ Click here to see my collection

11-25-2011, 08:15 AM	#28 (permalink)
s_k Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,206	Haha, well it's equal to the source if everything goes well __________________ Click here to see my collection

11-25-2011, 11:09 AM	#30 (permalink)
s_k Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,206	Well, to answer your question then; Most vinyl releases still sound better than CD's, imo. But not all. I've got some records that sound worse than the CD. For example... The last Shadow Puppets' Age of the Understatement or, an older one, Dire Straits' On Every Street. It has to be said though that this is often 'user error' by the company that produced the vinyl record and not a shortcoming of the medium itself. __________________ Click here to see my collection

11-25-2011, 07:04 AM	#25 (permalink)
duotone Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: London Posts: 169	I dont have any vinyls personally, but I remember reading that Arcade Fires THE SUBURBS album was recorded on analog, to create a warm sound. Then these were mastered onto cd. Not sure how much of an effect this would have to the overall sound though?