Bit of a stupid comment tbh.

Most kids illegally download rather than buy from itunes anyway.

My friends actually don't have the mental capability to illegally download music. I have to teach them how to torrent every other week.

they just listen to music on youtube, which I've been trying to tell them that the sound quality is bad but they can't tell the difference and that makes me sad.

I agree with him, as I feel that way about the whole download era. But as many have said Mr. Bon Jovi has done much more harm. Wonder what he thinks about Steven Tyler on American Idiots?

I don't know why everyone on this board is negative towards Jon Bon Jovi. However, in regards to Steve Jobs, it's not fair to blame him him entirely for the 'New Age' music format. I miss the record stores, too, but it's not only iTunes fault. Since the start of the internet, record sales in the local retails has dwindled conciderably, the cost of a CD compared to a mp3 dowload is ridiculous, and the ease of downloading is immediate. In all respectiveness, it's the persons who purchase downloads that is killing the music industry. Music has evolved from generation to generation, from one format to another, now it's the era for downloads. Although, I may not agree with the format, it has its benefits. For one, it's much convient to carry a mp3 player as opposed to haul a CD player and CDs or a walkman and cassette tapes. Secondly, someone can store his or hers entire music collection on one mp3 player. And thirdly, you can download albums that have otherwise has been out-of-print for quite some time. Society has to learn to adapt to this technology. So, Jon Bon Jovi has to accept the fact that this is the way the universe will purchase and listen to music. It's here until something else comes along.

nap-****ing-ster.
Jobs never causes anything, he just copies stuff that exists and does some brilliant marketing.

AOR is both a genre AND a radio format. Even RateYourMusic says so.

AOR *(aka Adult Oriented Rock) - Music Genres - Rate Your Music

itunes is a lone savior on the internet of the music industry. It couldn't be more the opposite of what he said. Jovi is just bitter cause he is older and is reminiscent about younger, earlier, "better," times like we all are :P

I guess if you are trying to target the whole internet though, it would fit to choose someone like Jobs.

exactly!!!!!11!!11!!!

What drugs are you on? I would say pass me some but I'm not into drugs. I think you should admit yourself for rehab.

tell Bon Jovi it's what we call, 'modernization'

The internet boom of the late-90's created a media revolution. People realized that copying, uploading, and downloading files could be done quickly and at no cost to them. Who could resist? It was a freeing time for all of us. The idea that music could exist without taking up any real space, that you could have 5000 songs at your finger tips and nevr have to worry about losing or scratching another CD ever again was fascinating.

I can admit it, I helped kill the music industry. Whatever, the bulk of good commercial music has already been made, and people who truly want to make great music will do so whether they are rich or not. So I'm not worried, the music industry can stay dead...

LONG LIVE FILE SHARING!!!

Every once in a while marijuana...advil... I am taking some claritin these days for allergies...

My logic is that with the inception of music being passed around on the internet, the world realized that it was going to be easier to download than to go to the store. People can get more music, more of the songs they wanted instead of whole albums, and it would be cheaper.

This was going to happen as cheaply as possible (in terms of both opportunity cost of putting in the effort and in dollars) regardless of who or what was doing this, the internet would find a way.

Because of Steve Jobs early on making iTunes a centralized and convenient resource for downloading an incredible amount of music, it has been highly used and direct profits from the sale of these songs have gone back through the system and to the artist.

15 billion songs have been transferred to users sitting on their computers that would have otherwise been obtained in other ways (and in many cases more freely) because Steve Jobs got a head start on the market.

Say what you want about my drugs but I have definitely spent MORE money in the past year on music because of itunes than less. You could drop 100 dollars in a sitting on albums and it would feel like nothing. This was definitely not the case 20 years ago. And any adult or person who wants the internet convenience while still supporting the industry they love can easily do this because of iTunes.

Really the part of the "industry" that has been hit harder is the giant record labels and biggest artists, since iTunes and the internet makes it a lot easier for smaller artists to distribute their music.(in some cases maybe too easy lol) The top has less control these days.

I thought about rehab. But then I said noo no noooo. :pimp:

the introduction almost made me not to continue reading your post.

i'm glad i read it cause you really do have a point.

There is one major flaw in your theory. Not everyone uses iTunes to get their music. Only people that are brainwashed by Mr. Jobs resorts to that. There are so many other venues out there to get the same music YOU are paying for free that people that know how to obtain them will most likely get them for free instead of paying for them through iTunes

How is that a flaw in my theory when that is exactly what I said? I was saying he is a bright spot for the industry on the internet, and when people go through itunes at least some revenue goes to the artists instead of none. Obviously the internet has other ways of transferring music, but that was my entire point. With the development of the internet music was going to get downloaded no matter what. Thankfully itunes has been successful so revenue is still generated to a certain degree where it otherwise wouldn't have been.

Read again what you wrote, your argument is that the INTERNET is killing the music industry, and that Steve Jobs is PART of the industry, which is true.

You sound like you are just angsty against the "Man", which is fine by me I feel the same way sometimes, but using iTunes =/= brainwashed. I like supporting the music I like financially, and I wish on top of being easy and convinient iTunes gave 99% profit to artists instead of 70%, but the world ain't perfect and neither am I.

I may have misread what you were trying to say but it's not that I'm angsty against the "Man". I just have major problems with Steve Jobs and I'm anti-apple.

I'm probably going to get hated for this, but I actually don't mind iTunes, and I admit to purchasing albums from it (a few weeks ago, actually). I think that it's a convenient way (and the only way for me at the moment) to obtain music legally. I'm guessing that most of the hate comes from the fact that iTunes used to sell 128kbps files only (which got upgraded to 256kbps a year or 2 ago)?

I'm suprised that Bon Jovi didn't rant about the other methods of downloading (like nearly everybody else in the mainstream).

I'd be fine with iTunes if the artist got a little more than 9c of every 99c track sold on iTunes. 50% of the money you pay for an artist's music through iTunes goes to Apple. Brilliant Capitalism it may be, and I respect Jobs for his intuitive understanding of business, but there's no way in hell I'm going to give that money to a company who repeatedly rape their fanbase through every orifice for as much money as they can squeeze out of them.

dont agree at all steve has brought music to everybody and made it easy to get

Because music was so difficult to find before iTunes! Steve Jobs is not responsible for the online market of music, he's responsible for perverting what might have been the perfect way to cut the cancerous tumor that is the Recording Companies out of music, to get the majority of all proceeds from albums to the artists who actually make them. Rather just making a profit out of it, he decided, as always, to make a killing, and create yet another business biased industry where hardly any of the money actually goes to the artists.

Yeah, maybe Bon Jovi overreacted, maybe he's being nostalgic for a day that's gone, but tbh, it doesn't make Steve Jobs any less of a complete wankstain for what he's done.

OK the hate for digital downloading because artists make less money is really starting to piss me off. I understand the dislike, I buy physical albums all the time and I would argue that record and cd stores are making a comeback over the past few years, but that's a discussion for another time.

The simple fact is, artists often make MORE MONEY off digital downloads of albums through iTunes, unless you count in the fact that as some have mentioned people used to buy albums just for one or two songs. Which is true, but outside of the big name major label bands that make plenty anyway, probably isn't often the case. It is true that labels make a much bigger chunk of the money, but artists make more money on iTunes and have to sell less than if they got a low end royalty deal - which is what any less popular or indie artist is going to get. The labels make much more money too, which when I am buying an album from any indie label, I am concerned about as well... I want the artist to get a fair share of the money, but I don't want the labels that consistently bring me quality music to not have enough money to promote and carry on.

And artists without a label on iTunes? They have to pay some digital distribution service out of their revenue, but iTunes still only takes 30 cents from each sale. So they make 69 cents off each download, minus what they pay for digital distribution.

So, think about all of this before you go spouting off about how iTunes is going to leave artists starving with no money. Steve Jobs provided a way for people to be exposed to much, much more music while shopping and put more money in independent labels and artists pockets. I will agree that there's nothing like going into a record store and shopping for vinyl or c.d.s, but if that's what you're complaining about it go do it. Any complaints are completely null and void unless the one complaining is actually actively going to record stores in a regular attempt to support them. Trust me, they are there. I've been to I don't know how many, they aren't going away anytime soon.

If you're right about the 30c/69c thing, then I'm totally with you on that. However, is there any chance you could reference where you're getting those numbers from? Everywhere I look online (Here, here, here and here, for example, to take the first four links from google) all state that the artist gets about 10c.

I'm not saying digital downloads are a bad thing, hell, I think it's a great idea to be able to sell your music online. But seriously? 10%? That's bull****.

I'll try to find a source and update this post. But I know for a fact as I've talked with an independent on iTunes who told me they take a 30 cent flat cut from every download. If you are an independent artist with no label or promotion to pay off, you therefore get all of the remaining cost. Like I said, you will probably have to pay a digital distribution service, and I can't say how much that costs. I would guess you would make at minimum 30 cents.

UPDATE:

Here's a link to something about digital distribution services:

7 Ways To Sell Your Music on iTunes

Here's an article on appleinsider where apple states that they take between 60 and 70 cents per download:

Apple Insider

So, as you can see CD Baby charges $35 in processing and $20 for a UPC code, then takes a commission of 9% on every sale. So, assuming the artist was receiving 60 cents (which I think is almost always the case for independent artists with no label), they would be paying 5.4 cents per sale to CD Baby, leaving the artist with 54.6 cents. To cover the initial charge of $55, you would therefore have to get about 102 downloads of single songs or just over 10 album downloads (assuming $10/album) to cover the cost, at which point you would be making 54.6 cents for every download. In my opinion, that's a sweet deal, and ends with a huge chunk of the money in the artist's pocket. The real issue with iTunes is the fact that they make deals that give the labels large amounts of the profit instead of the artist, but it still leaves the artist with a oomparable chunk of cash in comparison to physical music, where the amount of cds they would have to sell is going to be much higher before they start making a profit, but will receive more after that point.

These chart is a good comparison for how the label makes a lot and the artist less, but iTunes can still be better than other options:

Revenue to the artist chart

Basically, the best way if you are really concerned to get money to the artists is to buy directly through them when possible or go to concerts and buy merchandise there. Just wanted to point this out, because I think that iTunes gets a LOT of unfair hate for the amount of money going to the artists, where in reality it isn't really unreasonable at all unless you're a relatively large band with tons of iTunes downloads.

All hair metal was ****. Sorry to hurt your feelings by giving my opinion on a ****ty genre.
Um he was glam metal which is aka hair metal. So thank you for trying to act like you know what you are talking about when it is evident you do not.

I refuse to admit he has any good songs since he is garbage and since that quite popular genre was garbage as well. Just because something is popular does not make it good.


the music business has changed he did not kill it. He just helped make record companies pretty much obsolete


Um they play the songs over the radio does that not take away from an albums mystery? they sold singles before itunes even existed.

Follow your own advice and shut up than.

I guess you over look the fact that singles have been sold before itunes even existed. Go back on itunes and take a look how some songs are not available UNLESS you buy the full album.

Haha. Nicely put.

@Music Phantom: Thanks for the links, you're right, there is a lot of undue hatred out there, I should have dug a little deeper before making my mind up about it! It is a little annoying that digital download is often only slightly better than a ****ty record deal (given how horribly ripped off many artists are by that situation), but I guess we're never going to live in an ideal world where there aren't people skimming off the top, no matter what you do. And it doesn't really change my mind about Apple, I still think they massively overcharge for all their services :P

@Buzzov*en: ...I'm not even sure what to say to that. Basically, you don't like the genre which automatically means it's **** no matter what anyone else has to say? Nice argument. I'm perfectly fine with you not liking it, I couldn't care less what you think if that's your personal view of music, just don't try and tell me that something I quite enjoy listening to is garbage just because you think so.

Your comment to me was so contradicting it is funny. Basically I can have my opinion, but I can not express it to you since it talks badly about the genre you like. Wow.

Oh I'm with you there... I have an iPod and use iTunes, but the only time I actually buy music from them is when people give me gift certificates. I especially like how in that article they tried to say they were just getting by with no profit :laughing: And you're right, with a truly *good* independent label that cares about its artists, they can get a much better deal than iTunes.

No, I said you're perfectly entitled to an opinion, but a statement like "Bon Jovi sucks, end of." requires more than just your word for it. Opinion and fact are two very different things, after all. if you're unwilling to come to terms with that fact, then there's no point in discussing anything with you.

He does suck. Well there is not point in speaking to someone like yourself who is just starting **** since someone was blunt about an artist they like.
Don't try to say otherwise because you compeltely overlooked my response to your album mystery comment.

woah woah woah, slow down there a second. If you look back over this thread, I've offered more points to back up what I've been saying than the vast majority of people here. You want me to address a point I missed because i was taken aback by how biased you were against anything I was likely to say in the first place (which was my point, as i have proven in this thread I'm more than happy to change my opinion if someone can give me valid evidence to prove I'm wrong, you on the other hand seem so completely set in your views that I'd have as much fun arguing with a brick wall)?

Fine: Album mystery. Exactly how many singles are usually released off an album? Three, Four at most? What's the average length of an album? About 12 songs? That's a quarter of the album at the very most that you might hear before you buy it. Songs that may well not end up being your favourites on the album; there's still the majority of the album left to discover, hell it could end up being nothing like what you thought it would be.

I believe Oojay said earlier on in this thread that iTunes gives you a 90 second preview of any song you're thinking of buying. If that doesn't "kill the mystery" I don't know what will. Have I offered enough "opinion" here? Do you want me to go into more detail?

If you are buying singles and listening to singles and previewing albums it is pretty evident you don't give a **** about "album mystery," but you said it yourself. There is still the majority of the album that was not listened to. You are just an elitist crying about itunes with some pretty weak arguements.

Wait, what? First of all, I find it a bit rich that you're calling me an elitist when you have proclaimed yourself that an entire genre of music is complete garbage because you don't like it.

Secondly, did you actually address my point at all there? Seeing as you really didn't flesh out anything beyond yet more statements again, I'm going to make an attempt to post what I think your points are and then counter them. Do correct me if I've got it wrong, but you're not giving me much to work with here :P

1) People who bought singles didn't care about "Album Mystery"

There's a bit of a difference between knowing two or three songs on an album and knowing every song on the track, as I'm sure you know but you're just being obtuse for the sake of not admitting that I have any point whatsoever.

Then again, there's a problem here, which is the amount of money people have to spend on records. Maybe in Bon Jovi's childhood, LPs were cheap enough that you could dish out on a random album you didn't know anything about, but these days, I know very few students who have the money to buy CDs on a whim, so maybe the point is obsolete. Maybe he is yearning after a lost childhood that was ruined as much by the record companies as it was by iTunes, but for him, something is gone that can never be replaced. Have you never grouched about anything in your life?

2) "but you said it yourself. There is still the majority of the album that was not listened to."

Not sure what to make of this sentence. Either you're agreeing with me (in which case, great! We've come to an agreement about something) or you're twisting my words to say that people only listened to the singles on an album anyway and the rest of it went unlistened. If that's the case, that's bull****. I've never only listened to the singles on an album, neither have any of my close friends (most of whom listen to Bon Jovi!), and neither did either of my parents or my girlfriend or her family. The whole concept of not actually listening to an entire album belongs in the very different genre of pop music, which only really started when CDs started mass-producing, so it definitely didn't happen when Bon Jovi was young :P

I think I should say at this point that I came into this thread originally to say that Bon Jovi wasn't as bad as people were making him about to be, seeing as everyone was basically using this thread as an insult fest against him. It was more out of curiosity than anything, and on the majority of point i originally made, I seem to have come to a middle ground with most posters (see the recent couple of posts with Music Phantom).

However, you've continually beaten this point again and again despite the fact that even if it's right, and it might have an element of truth, it automatically then justifies everything you're saying about Bon Jovi being Garbage and nothing in that entire genre being worth listening to. That's the problem I have with the way you're posting. As a result, unless someone has something new to say, I'm going to leave it with this:

So Bon Jovi made a couple of remarks to a journalist about how he doesn't like Apple. Wow, that makes him unique in the world. Wow, he's annoyed about the fact that something from his childhood no longer exists. Can you think of nothing about which you feel the same way? And he chose a scapegoat who is probably not entirely at fault for the situation, but to be honest, Steve Jobs is a bit of a **** anyway, and I'm not going to lose any sleep over him having to take some flak from someone.

However, none of this means that he's in any way a bad guy, or "responsible for the death of the music business" himself, just because he made a nostalgic grumble. He's not the first person in history to do it, and I'm pretty sure anyone above the age of 18 on this forum has given out in the past about something they used to have not existing anymore, and blaming a particular person or company for it. Who hasn't? Cut him some slack, he's only human.

And regarding his music: you may love it or hate it, but Bon Jovi still have a ****load of fans, and have still produced a tonne of albums, and are still enjoyed by a large number of people out there on a musical basis. They may not be the greatest composers ever seen, they may not have hidden meanings in every track, they may not really stretch themselves outside their comfort zone and they may get pretty repetitive sometimes, but they have some damn good tracks. So it might not be your thing, but please, learn to separate Opinion from Fact.

Calling a genre **** does not make me an eltist. Talking about album mystery (frist time I ever heard that in my life) and complaining about itunes the way you are makes you an eltist.

Um a track is a song. You don't have a point stop being delusional and crying over album mystery haha. Who gives a **** that people do not enjoy listening to music the way you do? Get over it.

Oh well he needs to get over it. He is a moron. His arguement is pretty thing just like your's. OMG someone can't enjoy music? Please....... if they want to they will. Who the **** cares how people listen to music? Each person is different and gets something different from what they listen to.

No I said there is still the majority of an album that has not been listened to so listening to a few singles and 90 seconds of a song does not ruin what you call album mystery.

Have you met him personally? Do you know some of the things he has done that warrant people making him out to be a horrible person? I know I can speak for myself here that I do. The reason you do not see him as bad is because you like him.

But you will lose sleep over anyone ripping on an artist you like. Bon Jovi should just shut up. It is as simple as that especially when he is completely off.

I have some personal hate torwards Bon Jovi besides his ****ty music. I don't give slack to ignorant people like Bon Jovi. He needs to get over it. Technology changed music for the better. He is just bitter.

Since when does the amount of fans determine if music is good or not? Take your own advice. Stating that he has some damn good tracks as if it is a fact than telling me to seperate opinion from fact makes you a hypocrite.

*sigh*

As I expected, pretty much the same type of response. Well, have fun listening to yourself, because evidently it's beyond you to listen to anyone else. I'm leaving this thread because there's just no point in trying to argue with you on this. You obviously have a far superior argument which I cannot hope to defeat.

:wave:

I'll miss you.

The only thing good to come from Bon Jovi's music: