The Unbearable Idiocy of Pop Music Elitism

clutnuckle · 01-19-2011, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skaligojurah

Look, I'm not saying the Beatles are Partch, AMM, Cage, or Varese here. I am saying that they dug deep to the absolute bottom of obscurity to present what they were doing. Whether it was original or not, they were drastically different than the mainstream pop acts 20-30 years from when they started in their post-Revolver. Where as Gaga at the moment is stunningly similar to mainstream pop acts 20-30 years before now. Therefore, in comparison, deserve some consideration.

"Absolute bottom of obscurity"... How exactly is what they did the 'absolute bottom' when you've just stated four artists who have gone beyond what they did experimentally? And those are just general experimentalists... Plenty of other rock bands of the era still went far beyond The Beatles' level of experimentation. The absolute bottom they are not.

Also, plenty of psychedelic sixties bands had a similar sound to The Beatles. Many of them were also very popular. A few years later even, many bands started the whole psychedelic-rock flare up again in a commercial setting, mimicking many of The Beatles' trademarks and getting plenty of recognition for it. Perhaps not at the Beatles level of success, but they were being heard, and it's also not fair to bring popularity too deeply into this as Beatlemania did most of the work for them. Thus, they really weren't drastically different from many other pop acts at all. In the late 60s, many artists got famous off of The Beatles' rush and nobody really even cared about the mild differences in between the two artists.

To claim that The Beatles deserve a place in history for doing half of what other musicians of the time did, except while in a spotlight, is really demeaning to those who actually went the extra mile. I was reading a section of a history book the other day actually, that talked about the rock music of the 50s and 60s in order to show how it affected the people of the time, and all it could really discuss was their popularity. The utter RIOTS they created among fans. Mind you this same book had an entire section devoted to how Stravinsky's Rite of Spring made people go bonkers based off of its visceral, shocking performance. Whether or not The Beatles deserve it is up to you to decide, but they're easily going down in history as a successful band, and not one that inherently pushed any envelope.

Urban Hat€monger ? · 01-20-2011, 01:06 PM

Well i've listened to loads of Blues Rock albums & quite honestly none of them touch Exile On Main Street.

duga · 01-20-2011, 01:40 PM

All of this boils down to one thing: music is personal. Everyone keeps trying to come to some consensus on how we should view certain music, but really it would just be like beating your head against a wall. For every person who thinks the Beatles were god's gift to humanity there will be 2 more trying to prove that person wrong. This same argument then gets cycled over and over.

I think someone kind of went into this earlier, but music is also about context. If the Beatles were around in the time of Mozart or any "classical" composers, their music would have been completely ignored. Why? Because music was high class back then. You didn't get to listen to the good stuff unless you were royalty or stinking rich. With the advent of recording technology, being able to play music in your home no longer meant you were special. It shifted to the common man's form of entertainment. The Beatles were perfect in THAT scenario. There are also still plenty of composers around making classical music, but most people don't know who the hell they are.

If we really want to start judging music in any consistent way, then we should focus strictly on how it makes us feel. Classical music can evoke the same emotions for me that a really great pop song can. Pop songs can sometimes have the complexity that would require the skill of a professional composer. You just have to take what that artist did and think "Can just anyone make something like this?".

Composers surely have more theoretical knowledge than a pop musician, but I don't think that has any bearing on who is the better musician. In fact, I think people can get bogged down with the specifics when they go a lot into theory. Music becomes more rigid. Anyway...I'll stop rambling. Everyone's opinion is going to be different.

Screen13 · 01-20-2011, 02:43 PM

^ Agree.

It will always be down to individual opinions.

~~Odyshape~~ · 01-20-2011, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

All of this boils down to one thing: music is personal. Everyone keeps trying to come to some consensus on how we should view certain music, but really it would just be like beating your head against a wall. For every person who thinks the Beatles were god's gift to humanity there will be 2 more trying to prove that person wrong. This same argument then gets cycled over and over.

I think someone kind of went into this earlier, but music is also about context. If the Beatles were around in the time of Mozart or any "classical" composers, their music would have been completely ignored. Why? Because music was high class back then. You didn't get to listen to the good stuff unless you were royalty or stinking rich. With the advent of recording technology, being able to play music in your home no longer meant you were special. It shifted to the common man's form of entertainment. The Beatles were perfect in THAT scenario. There are also still plenty of composers around making classical music, but most people don't know who the hell they are.

If we really want to start judging music in any consistent way, then we should focus strictly on how it makes us feel. Classical music can evoke the same emotions for me that a really great pop song can. Pop songs can sometimes have the complexity that would require the skill of a professional composer. You just have to take what that artist did and think "Can just anyone make something like this?".

Composers surely have more theoretical knowledge than a pop musician, but I don't think that has any bearing on who is the better musician. In fact, I think people can get bogged down with the specifics when they go a lot into theory. Music becomes more rigid. Anyway...I'll stop rambling. Everyone's opinion is going to be different.

what a great post <3

duga · 01-21-2011, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odyshape

what a great post <3

Thanks! I do what I can.

TheBig3 · 01-22-2011, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

All of this boils down to one thing: music is personal.

the 70's called and asked for its shtick back.

Saying that the Beatles are the second coming of Gandhi is not a personal statement. Its being carted out as inherent truth.

Dotoar · 01-22-2011, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3

the 70's called and asked for its shtick back.

Saying that the Beatles are the second coming of Gandhi is not a personal statement. Its being carted out as inherent truth.

Do people say that? Isn't that just a more or less subconscious projection of a strawman from anti-Beatles elitists upon alleged Beatles fanboys?

**Janszoon** · 01-22-2011, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dotoar

Do people say that? Isn't that just a more or less subconscious projection of a strawman from anti-Beatles elitists upon alleged Beatles fanboys?

Do people overstate the case for the Beatles? Hell yes.

Wyrd · 01-22-2011, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Do people overstate the case for the Beatles? Hell yes.

I've heard hundred of different "reasons" for why they are the greatest band of all time. Some of their stuff is alright, but to me it just seems like cookie cutter feel good pop music. When they got more into the hippie movement, they just became even more unbearable.

01-20-2011, 01:06 PM	#2 (permalink)
Urban Hat€monger ? The Sexual Intellectual Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Somewhere cooler than you Posts: 18,626	Well i've listened to loads of Blues Rock albums & quite honestly none of them touch Exile On Main Street. __________________ Urb's RYM Stuff Most people sell their soul to the devil, but the devil sells his soul to Nick Cave.

01-20-2011, 01:40 PM	#3 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	All of this boils down to one thing: music is personal. Everyone keeps trying to come to some consensus on how we should view certain music, but really it would just be like beating your head against a wall. For every person who thinks the Beatles were god's gift to humanity there will be 2 more trying to prove that person wrong. This same argument then gets cycled over and over. I think someone kind of went into this earlier, but music is also about context. If the Beatles were around in the time of Mozart or any "classical" composers, their music would have been completely ignored. Why? Because music was high class back then. You didn't get to listen to the good stuff unless you were royalty or stinking rich. With the advent of recording technology, being able to play music in your home no longer meant you were special. It shifted to the common man's form of entertainment. The Beatles were perfect in THAT scenario. There are also still plenty of composers around making classical music, but most people don't know who the hell they are. If we really want to start judging music in any consistent way, then we should focus strictly on how it makes us feel. Classical music can evoke the same emotions for me that a really great pop song can. Pop songs can sometimes have the complexity that would require the skill of a professional composer. You just have to take what that artist did and think "Can just anyone make something like this?". Composers surely have more theoretical knowledge than a pop musician, but I don't think that has any bearing on who is the better musician. In fact, I think people can get bogged down with the specifics when they go a lot into theory. Music becomes more rigid. Anyway...I'll stop rambling. Everyone's opinion is going to be different. __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

01-20-2011, 02:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
Screen13 Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,388	^ Agree. It will always be down to individual opinions. Last edited by Screen13; 01-20-2011 at 02:50 PM.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode