Queen Boo

"Rape" implies that Fritter was not totally asking for it.

QFT +2

DevonWilliams

But you were fighting it. A naked bimbo wouldn't be fighting it because she is expecting it haha.

__________________
The hood is a lie

Queen Boo

Fair enough because even if I was an attractive, mentally deficient, and naked woman, that would not justify someone having uninvited sex with me......

fritter

for anyone looking at this, I deleted the post about the naked bimbo without knowing other people had already referred to it or noticed it. but I did say it, I just deleted it because I wanted to keep the discussion on technicality in music and not on me and my ignorant statements. And by that bimbo comparison I meant it was justified I got raped. so yeah back to the discussion topic.

__________________
(that weird meatball-looking thing in my avatar is an apple fritter)
Some songs I made: Yo Mama Tom-Toms

Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

Personally, I don't honestly think this is always the case. If you give a man or woman a noise making machine for long enough, and he or she has the right heart for it, and time, he or she will produce something that you can call music. Sometimes, with time, and experience, technical itself can be redefined. There are plenty of brilliant self taught musicians who don't play things by the book.

In fact, we wouldn't have the blues a good majority of modern American music genres are created from if we didn't have slaves freed who didn't need have access to knowledge of the white world of music, and needed to create something new with their spirit. Sure, with the communal value eventually a rule set was built, yet in the end, it was created simply from experimentation.

Furthermore, Tons of musicians learn to play simply from taking their instrument and imitating things. Eddie Van Halen used to sit at home all day with his guitar trying to play along with what he heard on the radio. Some could say that's learning your technical chops in a way but really, it's more getting a feel of your instrument to ear.

I mean, to this day, Van Halen is pretty much considered one of the most influential guitarists ever, and when you think about it, his technique is incredibly improper and incorrect compared to ten or twenty years before him.

Fact of the matter is, proper technique helps, but no matter how you chose to learn, they're all just roads to the same place.

OctaneHugo

Ahh Christ I love "Khatru" and this is the best closing statement I've seen in this thread. Probably the best post, too, since it summarizes pretty much everything correct about this situation.

In short: you don't need technical skill to make excellent music, stuff that has meaning or cultural value etc. Having a large amount of skill can help and hurt. It all depends on what you do with your skillset, what you're good at, what you're striving for and so on.

I think this is a pretty excellent statement, too. There are countless self-taught musicians with a great deal of technical skill, just like there are "classically trained" musicians who are great as well. Then you have the so-called-good out of there, people who create excellent music that actually has some sort of worth.

__________________

mr dave

from the top, you could also keep throwing poop at the wall all day every day and eventually someone might walk by an proclaim that it looks exactly like La Guernica. that doesn't mean you've somehow channeled Picasso or accomplished anything more substantial than the average 2 year old.

Blues comes from Gospel, who do you think forced the slaves to worship their Gods? it also wasn't created from experimentation it was created from the need for expression.

Furthermore, sitting on the edge of your bed trying to play along to everything you hear on the radio is the EPITOME of polishing your technical chops. it's all about mimicry. EVH's influence extends through every single poofy haired cheeseball that we all had the benefit of having to suffer through in the 80s. thanks. to say his technique was considered 'improper and incorrect' prior to him denies people like Jimmy Page, Chuck Berry, and JIMI FREAKING HENDRIX their rightful places as actual innovators who eschewed tradition once it ceased to benefit them.

what EVH brought to the table was speed and.... wait for it... TECHNICAL virtuosity within the confines of popular music. he does deserve credit for that, but he didn't break a single rule, he just leaned on the line for his whole career.

__________________
i am the universe

Dom

I don't believe it's necessary for a good song, but it like having better tools. It allows you to do a better job, but it doesn't mean you will do a better job. On top of this, I find hearing immense technical skill in a song has its own charm. For example, if I hear an amazing guitar solo I always have that extra feeling of awe at the skills involved, which adds to enjoyment of the song. However, I also know many songs which I love but aren't technically difficult. Often great songwriting can make up for a lack of technical skill; and occasionally vice versa.

__________________

Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

Blues is an incredibly different beast than gospel. It may have been based of Gospel but you cannot say they are all that similar. The biggest thing is Blues came from the fact that African Americans were introduced to a new variety of instrumentation that they've never seen before, and had to make up new rules for it. They may have loosely based it off the gospel/African tribal music but there's no way you can simply shift that to guitar without completely rewriting the book.

Hendrix is another good example of somebody who learned entirely outside the confines of traditional rule(Where as Page being an experienced studio guitarist is the opposite. Even if he did opt to break the rules when he had the opportunity). However, there are a few things Van Halen did differently. He had that little finger tapping thing. As for people influenced by him, couldn't give a ****. I myself believe that Van Halen as a band was extremely hit and miss. However, I think he was well more an inventive guitarist than you give him credit for. I mean, the way he introduced speed in itself I would say is creative.

My point is, he learned his technical chops but not be necessarily learning the rules. Suppose the phrase "You have to learn the rules before you break them" can't be taken too literally. But If eel it's kind of too easy of a phrase for elitist instrumentalists to toss onto self taught instrumentalists. The fact that Technical virtuosity was brought to the table is kind of enforcing my point that they're all roads to the same place. That you can break the rules very well before you learn them, or that you can very well break the rules entirely and make up your own.

Van Halen might not have been the best example but he's really the only mainstream figure I could think up to where I know how he developed his technique and how unconventional it was. Hendrix probably would have been a better example because he was very much an incredibly rule defying self taught musician.

Raust

A lot of music I listen to the guitarists aren't really that great (Elliott Smith, Kurt Cobain ect.). However I'm really into prog rock at the moment and technical skill is a must for that genre (Robert Fripp, David Gilmour ect.)