The Official "Music Was So Much Better in the Glorious Days of Yore" Thread

[jadis]

Originally Posted by Mucha na Dziko

And in popular music I often feel like the „complex” bands are doing it usualy for complexity’s sake, and not to actually enhance the experience. The Beach Boys or the Beatles are the oposite of that. The song/melody comes first, complexity later.

Thank you for enlivening this piece of tired man-on-the-street wisdom with something as funny as the "enhance the experience" bit.

But the Beach Boys? Come on. Brian Wilson was writing truly complex music for his time and even for any other really for that matter. It’s just that his songs are made in such a manner that at first, second, third listen you don’t hear what’s actually happening, because the melodies/harmonies are so captivating.

The definition of "complexity" on which you operate is "stuff I like"

Also, I believe we’re not Talking about classical music, so comparisons to Bach or Mahler do not apply. It’s a discussion about popular music, right?

Does the work of one Miles Davis belong to "popular music"? Or Don Van Vliet? Or Irmin Schmidt? Or did they all do "complexity for complexity's sake" instead of "enhancing our experience" as they should have?

[Mucha na Dziko]

Originally Posted by jadis

Thank you for enlivening this piece of tired man-on-the-street wisdom with something as funny as the "enhance the experience" bit.

Eh,
I’m extremely sorry that I dared to express an opinion.
And I’m actually sorry if my english seems funny, posh or whatever; i’m not a native speaker.

Even so, I do feel the venom in this part of your reply.

Originally Posted by jadis

The definition of "complexity" on which you operate is "stuff I like"

Well, no, it’s not, as I haven’t given a definitive definition of complexity, and I haven’t mentioned pretty much anything I listen to, or that I like. You base this comment on two examples I gave.

But to be true, yes, I like (love might be the better word) both the Beatles and the Beach Boys.

But my opinion of their music is not based on the fact that I enjoy listening to them, it’s quite the oposite - I enjoy listening to their music because of the intelectual opinion I have of it (at least that’s the Beach Boys case, I learned that such a band even existed when I was 18 or 19, before that I thought that they’re „that goofy surf rock band that made Surfin’USA”, but then when I learned of Pet Sounds, SMiLE, Surf’s Up (both the song and the album, etc), I was - being already at least quite knowledgeable of music theory, and all — completely mesmerized by Brian Wilson’s ability to wrote these unpredictable/unintuitional progressions, that still sound „nice” and „pop”, and his amazing ability to write harmonies [mostly vocal ones; but also in pair with the instumnetation, and the weirdest drum/percussion patterns I’ve heard — the percussion stuff I mean Pet Sounds the album]), with the Beatles I have a different, and more complex relationship.

Also, my entire point in this conversation was to differenciate taste from quality. With that not being offensive to the taste (at least in some cases).

Originally Posted by jadis

Does the work of one Miles Davis belong to "popular music"? Or Don Van Vliet? Or Irmin Schmidt? Or did they all do "complexity for complexity's sake" instead of "enhancing our experience" as they should have?

If you’d look to my profile you’d see that apart from the Beatles or Beach boys, I have Frank Zappa, Steely Dan and Grateful Dead listed as my favourite artists.


The funny part is that you immediately assume, after seeing two band examples, what my taste is, and what do I „deam worthy of being complex”.

I dislike the position in which you put me with this part of the reply, but let’s get to it:

Captain Beefheart was my second most often listened artist on last.fm last year (the first being Keith Richards).
I love his music very deeply, and no, I do not believe he makes complex compositions for complexity’s sake. He’s more of a troubled genius or whatever, and I have a soft heart for that kind of artist.

I do not know who Irmin Schmidt is...oh, no wait, I just checked. I discovered Can only a month ago or so, and the Tago Mago album really hit me hard, and so far I haven’t checked out more of their albums, beacuse I’m savouring this one. It’s kinda funny you mention this, because it was my father who showed me Can, because it reminded him a lot of the music I play with my band, and he was like „show it to the Boys! They’ll love it!”. And so it was.

As for Miles Davis:

I’m not an ignorant when it comes to jazz. There’s constantly music being played in my house (though no one aparat from me is a musician or aspires to be), and as my father is an absolute jazz freak, so the music I was listening to as a kid was Monk, Mingus, Davis, Coltrane (both of them), Shorter, Cannonball, Freddie Redd, Ed Harris, Getz, Jimmy Smith, Coleman, Don Cherry, Rahsan Kirk, Sanders, Lateef, my father’s favourite — Jackie McClean (mine would be Mingus or Cherry, not sure of my feeling here) and all of the others.

More so, my father was running a Jazz Club, during my coming-of-age years, and I was there pretty much every night, until they had to close it. And I actually met most of poland’s greatest jazzman of the old days, like Michał Urbaniak, Zbigniew Namysłowski, Wojciech Karolak, but also the likes of Steven Craven or Kevin Mahogany, and many many players between the age of 20 to 70.

It’s just that when Talking about music, or popular music, I don’t like to mix jazz with the pop/rock/blues/funk part of music. It just seems to me like it comes from a different place to all these other genres, and because of that comparing them is just plain dumb.
That’s why I dislike the Rolling Stone lists of greatest albums (like, yeah, ok, there’s 500 albums here, but only 4-6 jazz albums, the hell is happening? You either mix it all, or just add „Kind of Blue” to the list for no reason at all).



Am I less worthy of your despise now?
(No agression meant in that question)


Anyway, I’m not sure what your point was in that entire reply other than to insult me. What was your point?
(No offense here either)

[Mucha na Dziko]

Originally Posted by elphenor

pretty much a thousand times more vital than anything by The Beach Boys in my totally subjective opinion, just to demonstrate

one or two chords depending on how you want to look at it

(„Vital” - means „full of life/energetic”?)

[Mucha na Dziko]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Can you jerk off with water?

Astroglide > water

I guess you can’t argue with that

(Though you can technically use water as a lubricant)

[jadis]

I really don't despise you or anything like that, at most I don't share your confidence in the usefulness of applying certain words to certain things.

The "enhances the experience" bit was funny cause that's what every condom product description says.

It's way more fun to agree about liking Beefheart and hating Rolling Stone's great album lists than it is to argue about definitions, genres, canons etc. I say we stick to the former.

[Mucha na Dziko]

Originally Posted by jadis

The "enhances the experience" bit was funny cause that's what every condom product description says.

Yeah, ok, now I get it. It’s the same in polish actually. Weird I didn’t notice that.
But good you did
This way I won’t use it again, unless intentionally that is.

Originally Posted by jadis

It's way more fun to agree about liking Beefheart and hating Rolling Stone's great album lists than it is to argue about definitions, genres, canons etc. I say we stick to the former.

****.
And here I was readying myself for the next round

Originally Posted by jadis

I don't share your confidence in the usefulness of applying certain words to certain things.

Well, you know, if words aren’t useful in communicating certain things, then what are we left with?

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by Mucha na Dziko

Well, you know, if words aren’t useful in communicating certain things, then what are we left with?

[Mucha na Dziko]

Originally Posted by elphenor

yeah, ya know...it rocks

Well, I’m not Talking about the total of Beach Boys catalogue, but during the Brian Wilson glory days, the music was never supposed to „rock” or anything.

It’s supposed to call out to these deep emotions, you never even thought you had, thanks to Brian’s falsetto, weird cadences and ambigous lyrics. Like, to being you closer to his troubled mind really.

Not sure though doesn’t it happen only if you feel a strong connection to Brian as a person (well, in the 60s it didn’t - hence the popularity, and the „Brian Wilson is a genius” slogan).


Though I know I will get bashed beacuse of it again, I just say it, because I truly believe that (yes, at least in half because of my emotional response to his music) yes indeed Brian Wilson is a genius, and his work should be compared rather to classical composers or jazzmen, than to popular music musicians.




But then I do agree that what you’ve linked is way more vital than anything out of the Beach Boys catalogue.

[Mucha na Dziko]

Originally Posted by the batlord

true

[Mucha na Dziko]

Originally Posted by elphenor

I would argue Velvet Underground wrote simpler songs that are in execution more complex because of Cale's Viola and Reed's very forward thinking approach to guitar

just as another example where trying to gauge musical complexity is pretty unintuitive

I wouldn’t call Wilson „pop” per se

I truly think he is a great „composer” of sorts. Or really of any sorts.

The best Beach Boys songs aren’t played by Beach Boys themselves. But by session musicians (like the „Wrecking Crew”), but with written partitures by Brian
With the Beach Boys (that including Brian) doing the vocals and the harmonies.


I do get your other point (the one about intuition when it comes to complexity), but what it comes down to in this case truly is what one is searching in music