The louder the lie, the better believed

shellyboy9 · 12-30-2009, 10:34 PM

I'm continually disheartened by the overwhelming ignorance people have about the history of popular music in this country. I'm sure many of you have seen old movies where white people sing differently than they do today. Aren't any of you curious as to when white people started sounding more like black people? After all, the blues influence permeates every level of popular music extant. Most of you believe either Elvis or the Beatles invented rock and roll. This smacks of both ignorance and at least closet racism. Some of you may believe white people aping blues musicians are the reason for this. This is also false, although closer to the truth. Aren't any of you curious as to when and how rock and roll became "rock"? If you read rock magazines then you believe that the most influential musicians in the history of rock and roll are the Beatles followed by Elvis, with perhaps the Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan thrown in the mix. Frankly, I want to dispel a lot of these myths, lies, delusions, and wishful thinking.
You know how people interpret lyrics: emphasizing words in the lyric or parts of the melody to personalize, distinguish, or illuminate phrases? Well, neither the Beatles or Elvis or any of the aforementioned invented that style. The truth is, before Louis Armstrong, no one did that. No one. Without Louis all popular music would sound like those funny black and white musicals you see on television late at night. He also changed all jazz music forever, but that's a different story. Suffice to say he's the most influential musician in the history of popular music. Without him, no Elvis, no Beatles. The first white man to imitate black phrasing with any respect? Al Jolson. Even he did it painting his face black in the 1920's. Racist huh. Want to know who invented rock and roll? Black people. Sorry, but you can look it up. Who invented the phrase rock and roll? A white DJ named Alan Freed. The phrase rock and roll by the way was black slang for the sex act. You know, coitus, copulation, sexual congress. You get the point. The word jazz was also a euphemism for the sex act. Seen in that light, this was a real joke to black people at the time. What's that music you guys are playing? That, why, that's just sex (add your own obscene term). The first true rock and roll acts were urban acapella groups. The first true "rock" act? Chuck Berry. Guitar oriented rock and roll.
The Beatles the magazines say. What about the Beatles? Their influence remains to this day in popular music. I can't deny that. Well, in white rock that is. So much so that this music has changed little since. Musically and rhythmically this music has remained virtually unchanged in over 40 years. I'm talking the White Stripes, Foo Fighters, Franz Ferdinand, The Pixies, and on and on. Listen to black music from 1963 and listen to Hip-Hop. Now, I'm no fan of Hip-Hop believe me, not at all. But if black music sounded the same for forty years black people would riot. I ask you, what music has been more influential for rhythmic and musical change over the last 40 years? The artists I've just mentioned look like musical cowards to me, no matter how much they scream that they're different. People, just because you've never heard it doesn't make it new. I have more to say, but I'm tired, and this is feeling more and more like a rant. Any cogent responses will be appreciated.

Arya Stark · 12-30-2009, 10:36 PM

This is something I've been really interested.
But honestly, it's not The Beatles or Elvis who are at fault.
It's everyone who wouldn't let congregation really happen.

cardboard adolescent · 12-30-2009, 10:41 PM

music ended with john cage, everything else is a distraction.

duga · 12-30-2009, 10:44 PM

i'm pretty sure elvis was around before the beatles...

but yeah the beatles knew all about exactly what you are talking about and they capitalized on it. their early covers were from some of the very artists you are mentioning.

white artists got credit for black style because during the time, it was not really acceptable to listen to black music in the white community...thus the only way kids at the time could get into it was if a white guy was singing. this came a time later, but led zeppelin was frequently criticized because robert plant sang too much like a black guy.

i'm not totally sure of the main point you were trying to make...but if it has to do with black artists getting credit i'm with you on that...

midnight rain · 12-30-2009, 10:45 PM

While I do agree that alot of people are uninformed on black people's contribution to music, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the members here are well aware that Elvis didn't invent rock music.

I do agree though that those crackheads paid to write about music place way too much importance on past rock musicians and not nearly enough on other genres.

TheBig3 · 12-30-2009, 10:58 PM

There have been pages written here debunking the heresay thats put up as fact by the OP.

Do yourself a favor friends. If you think this has merit, go research it. Don't listen to what some hippy-throw back professor tells you, or whats a surface glance wikipedia search will give you.

All attempts to paint rock music as the great continuation of racism in the US (the presumed country) is foolish, and to stroll onto a site that deals with music primarily and assume this hasn't been discussed before as if you're some sort of enlightened prophet speaks volumes about the mindset of the OP.

All the best, though.

Edit: I also wanted to add this in.

If Rock is an offbeat marriage between Country and Blues, I'm wondering how White people wouldn't have been included. Did Black people invent country music as well?

The real racism here comes from needing to assign race elements to the experience at all. Do you gain anything from the music by know who created what, and from where? Maybe in a historical context but certainly not to experience the music.

Where we stand today with "rock" music has influences from just about every root/folk music from every nation you can imagine. So it would boggle my mind to think rock music holds racism at all. It seems to exist without the awareness of race and yet every so often we get some Musical Appreciation Major on here who needs to let us know how terrible we all are for not all having the entire collection of Louis Armstrong, Chuck Berry, Robert Johnson, and Dizzy Gillespie. Which we clearly do not have despite a mod on the site being named Satchmo...maybe he just liked the word.

~~bungalow~~ · 12-30-2009, 11:06 PM

Who's this goofball?

midnight rain · 12-30-2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog

There have been pages written here debunking the heresay thats put up as fact by the OP.

Do yourself a favor friends. If you think this has merit, go research it. Don't listen to what some hippy-throw back professor tells you, or whats a surface glance wikipedia search will give you.

All attempts to paint rock music as the great continuation of racism in the US (the presumed country) is foolish, and to stroll onto a site that deals with music primarily and assume this hasn't been discussed before as if you're some sort of enlightened prophet speaks volumes about the mindset of the OP.

All the best, though.

Edit: I also wanted to add this in.

If Rock is an offbeat marriage between Country and Blues, I'm wondering how White people wouldn't have been included. Did Black people invent country music as well?

The real racism here comes from needing to assign race elements to the experience at all. Do you gain anything from the music by know who created what, and from where? Maybe in a historical context but certainly not to experience the music.

Where we stand today with "rock" music has influences from just about every root/folk music from every nation you can imagine. So it would boggle my mind to think rock music holds racism at all. It seems to exist without the awareness of race and yet every so often we get some Musical Appreciation Major on here who needs to let us know how terrible we all are for not all having the entire collection of Louis Armstrong, Chuck Berry, Robert Johnson, and Dizzy Gillespie. Which we clearly do not have despite a mod on the site being named Satchmo...maybe he just liked the word.

I LOLed and agree completely. I guess appreciating the contributions of black people specifically in history is some form of open-mindedness these days. I, for one, don't feel indebted to black people for what my ancestors did.

shellyboy9 · 12-30-2009, 11:32 PM

Frankly, my main point is about misinformation. I'm more worried however about the stagnancy of popular music, including Hip-Hop which has remained unchanged for 15 years. duga, Elvis preceded the Beatles, but influentially, there no comparison. Back to the current musical stagnation. In the 80's when talking with friends we would say, well, Whitney Houston in the now, but Hop-Hop is next. In the 70's we would say, well, disco is the now, but funk is next. Now I say, well, Hip-Hop remains the now, where the hell is the next? Black music has always been the leaders of the next, where is it? This bodes poorly not only for black music, but for all popular music.
I own 7,000 (god!) records, 2500 of which are classical, (3500 R and B, Rock, and dance, the rest Jazz). For me, cardboard adolescent, Cage and most of the other de-constuctionists of modernity including Wuorinen, Partch, Varese, Scriabin et.al. are the distractions. People not only want, but need melody. Our bodies thrum to natures universal melodies and harmonies. The downfall of classical music parallels the rise of atonality; and the rise of rock and roll. It's not coincidence.
Indeed, Thebig3killedmyraindog, music is a universal hodgepodge, but even a mongrel has it's mitochondrial DNA. Country music has its roots in Irish music and minstrel shows. You've heard of those, right big3? I'm no OP TheBigblindersonbabeinthewoods. I'm just a guy who's seen a lot of music. All types, all kinds for lots of years. By the way folks, always fear those who drop quotes to legitimize they're the world is made of you and me, but I'm the bad ass. As long as there's a Tuna, I'm talkin'.

duga · 12-30-2009, 11:36 PM

mkay....

how was anyone ever able to truly predict a "next" as you say? i think music is doing just fine...as i tell everyone there is amazing stuff out there...you just have to look for it. the best has never been the most popular.

i saw a doc once and i forget who said it but a quote goes "the beatles were an interesting phenomenon because when they were around it is the only time in music history where the most popular happen to also be the most talented". very paraphrased btw

12-30-2009, 10:34 PM	#1 (permalink)
shellyboy9 Groupie Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 9	The louder the lie, the better believed I'm continually disheartened by the overwhelming ignorance people have about the history of popular music in this country. I'm sure many of you have seen old movies where white people sing differently than they do today. Aren't any of you curious as to when white people started sounding more like black people? After all, the blues influence permeates every level of popular music extant. Most of you believe either Elvis or the Beatles invented rock and roll. This smacks of both ignorance and at least closet racism. Some of you may believe white people aping blues musicians are the reason for this. This is also false, although closer to the truth. Aren't any of you curious as to when and how rock and roll became "rock"? If you read rock magazines then you believe that the most influential musicians in the history of rock and roll are the Beatles followed by Elvis, with perhaps the Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan thrown in the mix. Frankly, I want to dispel a lot of these myths, lies, delusions, and wishful thinking. You know how people interpret lyrics: emphasizing words in the lyric or parts of the melody to personalize, distinguish, or illuminate phrases? Well, neither the Beatles or Elvis or any of the aforementioned invented that style. The truth is, before Louis Armstrong, no one did that. No one. Without Louis all popular music would sound like those funny black and white musicals you see on television late at night. He also changed all jazz music forever, but that's a different story. Suffice to say he's the most influential musician in the history of popular music. Without him, no Elvis, no Beatles. The first white man to imitate black phrasing with any respect? Al Jolson. Even he did it painting his face black in the 1920's. Racist huh. Want to know who invented rock and roll? Black people. Sorry, but you can look it up. Who invented the phrase rock and roll? A white DJ named Alan Freed. The phrase rock and roll by the way was black slang for the sex act. You know, coitus, copulation, sexual congress. You get the point. The word jazz was also a euphemism for the sex act. Seen in that light, this was a real joke to black people at the time. What's that music you guys are playing? That, why, that's just sex (add your own obscene term). The first true rock and roll acts were urban acapella groups. The first true "rock" act? Chuck Berry. Guitar oriented rock and roll. The Beatles the magazines say. What about the Beatles? Their influence remains to this day in popular music. I can't deny that. Well, in white rock that is. So much so that this music has changed little since. Musically and rhythmically this music has remained virtually unchanged in over 40 years. I'm talking the White Stripes, Foo Fighters, Franz Ferdinand, The Pixies, and on and on. Listen to black music from 1963 and listen to Hip-Hop. Now, I'm no fan of Hip-Hop believe me, not at all. But if black music sounded the same for forty years black people would riot. I ask you, what music has been more influential for rhythmic and musical change over the last 40 years? The artists I've just mentioned look like musical cowards to me, no matter how much they scream that they're different. People, just because you've never heard it doesn't make it new. I have more to say, but I'm tired, and this is feeling more and more like a rant. Any cogent responses will be appreciated. Last edited by shellyboy9; 12-30-2009 at 10:40 PM.

12-30-2009, 10:58 PM	#6 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	There have been pages written here debunking the heresay thats put up as fact by the OP. Do yourself a favor friends. If you think this has merit, go research it. Don't listen to what some hippy-throw back professor tells you, or whats a surface glance wikipedia search will give you. All attempts to paint rock music as the great continuation of racism in the US (the presumed country) is foolish, and to stroll onto a site that deals with music primarily and assume this hasn't been discussed before as if you're some sort of enlightened prophet speaks volumes about the mindset of the OP. All the best, though. Edit: I also wanted to add this in. If Rock is an offbeat marriage between Country and Blues, I'm wondering how White people wouldn't have been included. Did Black people invent country music as well? The real racism here comes from needing to assign race elements to the experience at all. Do you gain anything from the music by know who created what, and from where? Maybe in a historical context but certainly not to experience the music. Where we stand today with "rock" music has influences from just about every root/folk music from every nation you can imagine. So it would boggle my mind to think rock music holds racism at all. It seems to exist without the awareness of race and yet every so often we get some Musical Appreciation Major on here who needs to let us know how terrible we all are for not all having the entire collection of Louis Armstrong, Chuck Berry, Robert Johnson, and Dizzy Gillespie. Which we clearly do not have despite a mod on the site being named Satchmo...maybe he just liked the word. __________________ I've moved to a new address

12-30-2009, 11:32 PM	#9 (permalink)
shellyboy9 Groupie Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 9	Frankly, my main point is about misinformation. I'm more worried however about the stagnancy of popular music, including Hip-Hop which has remained unchanged for 15 years. duga, Elvis preceded the Beatles, but influentially, there no comparison. Back to the current musical stagnation. In the 80's when talking with friends we would say, well, Whitney Houston in the now, but Hop-Hop is next. In the 70's we would say, well, disco is the now, but funk is next. Now I say, well, Hip-Hop remains the now, where the hell is the next? Black music has always been the leaders of the next, where is it? This bodes poorly not only for black music, but for all popular music. I own 7,000 (god!) records, 2500 of which are classical, (3500 R and B, Rock, and dance, the rest Jazz). For me, cardboard adolescent, Cage and most of the other de-constuctionists of modernity including Wuorinen, Partch, Varese, Scriabin et.al. are the distractions. People not only want, but need melody. Our bodies thrum to natures universal melodies and harmonies. The downfall of classical music parallels the rise of atonality; and the rise of rock and roll. It's not coincidence. Indeed, Thebig3killedmyraindog, music is a universal hodgepodge, but even a mongrel has it's mitochondrial DNA. Country music has its roots in Irish music and minstrel shows. You've heard of those, right big3? I'm no OP TheBigblindersonbabeinthewoods. I'm just a guy who's seen a lot of music. All types, all kinds for lots of years. By the way folks, always fear those who drop quotes to legitimize they're the world is made of you and me, but I'm the bad ass. As long as there's a Tuna, I'm talkin'. Last edited by shellyboy9; 12-30-2009 at 11:55 PM.

12-30-2009, 10:41 PM	#3 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	music ended with john cage, everything else is a distraction.

12-30-2009, 10:44 PM	#4 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	i'm pretty sure elvis was around before the beatles... but yeah the beatles knew all about exactly what you are talking about and they capitalized on it. their early covers were from some of the very artists you are mentioning. white artists got credit for black style because during the time, it was not really acceptable to listen to black music in the white community...thus the only way kids at the time could get into it was if a white guy was singing. this came a time later, but led zeppelin was frequently criticized because robert plant sang too much like a black guy. i'm not totally sure of the main point you were trying to make...but if it has to do with black artists getting credit i'm with you on that...

12-30-2009, 10:45 PM	#5 (permalink)
midnight rain Music Addict Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,711	While I do agree that alot of people are uninformed on black people's contribution to music, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the members here are well aware that Elvis didn't invent rock music. I do agree though that those crackheads paid to write about music place way too much importance on past rock musicians and not nearly enough on other genres.

12-30-2009, 11:06 PM	#7 (permalink)
~~bungalow~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Hot-lanta Posts: 3,140	Who's this goofball?

12-30-2009, 11:36 PM	#10 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	mkay.... how was anyone ever able to truly predict a "next" as you say? i think music is doing just fine...as i tell everyone there is amazing stuff out there...you just have to look for it. the best has never been the most popular. i saw a doc once and i forget who said it but a quote goes "the beatles were an interesting phenomenon because when they were around it is the only time in music history where the most popular happen to also be the most talented". very paraphrased btw