Sansa Stark

I think you're just waiting for someone to **** on her so you can tack a negative label on them and call them sizeist. Go back to your militant feminism club and grow your armpit hair. There is no way in hell she is healthy. She is obviously obese, and no quack would tell you otherwise, just by looking at her. What, are all those rolls air? And you know, just because YOU find her attractive doesn't make the rest of us sizeist or sexist or whatever pretty box you'd like to put us in, and i think you acting as such is just ****ed up. It's my right to find her unattractive.

thirtiesgirl

You're throwing around a lot of assumptions here. You know nothing about me, yet assume because I advocate for size acceptance that I'm a "militant feminist" and don't shave my pits. I'm actually a third-wave feminist, about which it seems you could use some education, and generally prefer to shave. I certainly place no judgment on anyone who chooses not to, though.

Another assumption you engage in here is that I expect everyone to find Beth Ditto attractive. I really don't care if you find her attractive or not. Attraction is subjective and if you don't see it in someone, that's your prerogative. What I *do* find sizeist are your assumptions about Beth's health. You know nothing about her or about her medical records, yet you assume she's unhealthy simply based on her size. That is sizeism. Rather than allowing Beth to maintain her autonomy and speak for herself about her health, should she choose to, you take away that autonomy when making an assumption that's based on your own fears and issues with fat.

What I find sizeist about Zaq's post is his overt assumption that Beth is less socially acceptable than other women who more readily fit into the media sponsored standard image of "beauty." I don't expect Zaq to find her attractive, but I do hope that he'd at least expand his scope of reference enough to understand that some people do find fat people attractive and that's ok. Just because you don't find a fat person attractive or you dislike their personality is no reason to engage in sizeism or make sure everyone knows you think they're an uggo.

I would actually prefer not to think of anyone on this board as sizeist because sizeism is something I've worked long and hard to educate people about and to hopefully, slowly, eradicate. It's not something I like or expect to see in others.

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Zaqarbal

Wait! There's been too much confusion and misunderstandings in some posts before, but I want to clarify that point. Let's distinguish between acceptable and accepted, OK? And let's distinguish between describing a common social view and expressing a moral opinion about that view, OK? They are different things. I know that some people do find fat people attractive, but that's not a popular ideal. I'm just describing a fact, whether we like it or not. I'm not making a "moral judgement", OK? And if you look at this post, you'll see that the two last points are very clear on this matter:

You see?

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thirtiesgirl

Zaq, you can argue your point all you want, but you're not going to convince me. There's no difference between "accepted" and "acceptable." The point that you seem to be making by posting 'comparison' pics of Beth Ditto and Francoise Hardy is that Beth is "socially unacceptable" by general standards. If you argue in support of the general standard that "fat people are socially unacceptable," you're supporting that point of view. You can't split hairs with me and pretend that you're not.

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Even in my darkest recollection, there was someone singing my life back to me. ~Neko Case

Zaqarbal

Look, I'm tired of this discussion. And it's not the first time I argue with people like you (on many topics, from politics or religion to cinema or music), which continually plays the "strategic ambiguity" because they don't find any other way to "win a debate". And according to my "dialectic" experience, it's not worth the trouble to continue. In fact, it'd be counter-productive. So think whatever you want. As Clark Gable said to a 30's girl in the famous movie: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn".

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Apart from that: Does anyone know the former band A-Teens? I'm not a big fan of that style (the so-called Europop), but the group's singers were gorgeous! Especially if we compare them to.... say... Beth Ditto... for example. I loved Marie Serneholt!


And Vengaboys, from the Netherlands? SK, man, how fortunate you are! You were f***ing right when you said that the Dutch girls are great! What beauties you have there! I loved when Kim Sasabone sang ♫ "Boom boom boom, I want you in my room..." ♫ Yeahh! I couldn't sing the same to Beth Ditto (there isn't enough space in it for her!!).


And Princessa? Wow! Mediterranean beauty at its best! She's no longer active, but I remember I had a big crush on her when I was younger. Although, as I said, this is not one of my favourite music genres. Lately I've been thinking about how fortunate I was for having known such hot female musicians. I mean, instead of Beth Ditto (just to put an example).

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s_k

She's not completely caucasion so I guess she's not all that dutch.
She's not ugly, but entirely not my type. Slutty all the way. And she doesn't look that smart.

Eitherway, I'm very ashamed that crap like Vengaboys and Aqua comes from here. No matter what their singer looks like.


The discussion above is at total waste of Energy.
I can't say I like the way Beth Ditto looks. Haven't got a clue who she is by the way.
But why start a topic about taste when you criticize eachother's taste?
Tastes differ. You don't have to agree.
And I think Thirtiesgirl likes Beth for her don't give a **** attitude in the first place and not because she's a beautiful woman. She's not even trying to be, I guess.

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thirtiesgirl

Um... slutty?? You know nothing about Beth's sexual history and have no cause to judge. Quit slut shaming women.

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Even in my darkest recollection, there was someone singing my life back to me. ~Neko Case

Sansa Stark

Oh don't give me that bull****, I'm a ****ing card carrying feminist and get off your high horse on educating anyone. You are not going to educate anyone on fat acceptance and on the pits shaving thing, I really do not give a damn what you do with your body hair, I was merely being flippant.

I don't care if she loses her autonomy or whatever bull**** you are parroting, anyone could look at her and see all that lard is not healthy! She doesn't appear to have any muscle tone or anything. It's all blubber. I'm sorry if you think that's based on "my own issues and fears of being fat". I once was overweight, so I know how it is.


It's funny though, you call me out on "making assumptions" and turn around and do the exact same thing.

thirtiesgirl

No, it wouldn't, because Courtney Love's body shape is generally considered 'socially acceptable' by the general public, regardless of what they think of her personality, parenting skills or musical talent. His point in posting comparison pictures, as he's done again above, is to showcase his belief that thinner women are 'more attractive' in comparison to Beth Ditto simply because they have 'socially acceptable' body shapes, according to the popular media and general public. He's not expressing anything new here. We all know that thinner female body shapes are the preferred social paradigm, as witnessed by the body shapes of women on every magazine cover on the newsstands, in popular television and film. Did Zaq actually assume that this is a surprise to fat people?

Hon, I've made no assumptions about you that aren't already obvious. Your sizeism is very apparent based on the things you've written here. I assume your weight loss has made you happier and for that I'm glad. But rather than work towards creating a social environment where people of all sizes and shapes can feel accepted, appreciated, understood and loved, you continue to show hatred for fat people by making assumptions about their health and not allowing them the autonomy to speak for themselves, should they choose to. Again, you profess knowledge of Beth's health without ever having seen her medical records. Your assumption that she's "not healthy" is based on your assessment of her appearance alone ("it's all blubber," "no muscle tone," "all that lard"). It's unfortunate that you bring your sizeism here, but not that surprising to me. Sizeism is the last acceptable prejudice and not one that's easily eradicated. I've been working on it for the past 10 years.

At any rate, I've said what I need to say about the subject. I'm sure you'll continue the argument since you seem determined to express and spread your fat hate. Just know that you're not saying anything new, nothing that fat people haven't heard before. And in my case, it will fall on deaf ears, not gain you any respect in my eyes, and continue to showcase your sizeist attitude.

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Even in my darkest recollection, there was someone singing my life back to me. ~Neko Case

Urban Hat€monger ?

Yes it would because in his original post all Zaqarbal did was post a picture of a woman he found unattractive, in this case Beth Ditto.

It was YOU that bought up the weight issue later on.

So yes, a picture of Courtney Love would have implied the exact same thing.

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