Jester

Big L is better than 2pac, but not for the reasons you're giving. Someone can be technically equipped and still suck, because they don't make good use of their abilities. And honestly, all I've ever seen you talk about is "yeah, this guy is a good rapper because he rhymes multiple syllables," and stuff like that. The only time I've ever seen you concerned with topics is with gangsta rap, which you ridicule endlessly without good reason. A good gangsta rapper is just as good as any other good rapper.

edit: Canibus has quite a few technical feats under his belt, but they're irrelevant because he blows. That's my example. Guru doesn't lace his rhymes with technical devices, but he's still an above average rapper.

Janszoon

I have to say I had never even heard of Big L until I read this thread, but the comments about him being one of the best lyricists in hip-hop intrigued me. I just checked out a couple of his songs on YouTube but the lyrics didn't strike me as particularly noteworthy. Is there a particular song or album I should check out to hear his best writing?

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Captain Awesome

Then why is he better? He is a better rapper ebcause he is a better lyricist. It's very ****ing simple.


Lyrically, yes they can. Big L, Big Daddy Kane, Kool G Rap, Big Pun and more recently Royce 5'9. All of these men are brilliant lyricists, in fact they are some of the best rappers/lyricists that have existed.


1. If that's the only time you've seen me concerned with topics it's because you don't know me well enough.

2. I do have good reason. Most gangster rappers sound the same. If a gangster rapper is going to display some insane lyrical ability (royce, pun, B.D kane) then you bet your ass I will respect them as a lyricist and give credit where it's due. But people like chingy, 50cent, lil wayne, the game. They are all the same, I find their music monotonous, dull and extremely dumbed down. They don't rap because of their love for the music they rap because of their love for the celebrity status. They saw what others were doing and instead of being influenced they took it a step further and blatantly just imitated their predecessors simply because they know it works and know it will increase their chances of becoming famous. Now I'm not saying their music can't be entertaining, I'm a fan of ludicrous and dre as well as a few other gangster rappers(who are lyrically below average) but I am a fan of them as entertainers, not rappers.

"Rhyme from your heart and do your business with your head" - I am a firm believer in this.

To sum it all up - "He's got to do what he's told, and let them use up his soul so the units are sold/ Why would they let the music evolve when it's easier just to fit the usual mould."




1. Canibus sucks lyrically. Everyone thinks he's a lyricist because he uses "big words" it's a common misconception by retards and idiots that lyricism is somehow the same as using words that the average person doesn't understand. Talking about the moon and the stars and metaphysics does not make you a lyricist.

2. Guru is an above average entertainer but only an average rapper.

__________________

"If we're all merely players in a play on this great stage,
the problem is the script writers ain't on the same page,
I echo through the mountain when I'm singing in the air,
from my lab a lad with lavish lyrics living in his lair."


"Wake up and listen, hear what's not for the public's ears
Pinocchio poets played by profiting puppeteers"

Jester

Big L is better than 2pac because 2pac wasn't special, he was a pretty cliche rapper who had few redeeming qualities. Big L had a different style; he basically invented punchline rap. He's partly better because his style set him apart from others. Yes, he's a better lyricist. Yes, that's a huge part of him being a better rapper than 2pac. He's creative.

Every time you post about gangsta rap, you say you respect those lyricists as lyricists, but "wish they rapped about something else." Do you complain about movie directors making movies about gangster tales?

Ludacris is (or, was) a great rapper because he was incredibly animated and punchy, and yes, entertaining. Entertaining is a quality of a rapper, you know. Ludacris has character and works it; that's quality. Making a character of yourself that sets you apart and making it work through your lyrics in an interesting way? That's a good rapper.

Your complaint is that a lot of the modern mainstream is gangsta rap and bad, so you link the retardation of the current mainstream to gangsta rap as a whole. You blame gangsta rap for the bad, but don't blame the so-called artists for retarding the system. Gangsta rap can be excellent; gangsta rap changed rap for the better.

Canibus blows because he tries too hard to sound like he has some super intelligence; his rapping is unnatural and forced, and he's obsessed with retarded pseudo-science bullshit. That said, he's well capable of stringing together multiple syllable rhymes and making use of wordplay; that doesn't make him good or respectable just because he can do that.

Guru is definitely above average as a rapper. It's not all about stringing together as many rhymes as you possibly can. Guru's one of the best simply because he says things that will stick with you for a long time; you can say beautiful, artistic things that matter without rhyming 3 syllables every rhyme.

Answer this: If an author employs rhetorical devices over and over and over again, should he instantly be considered a good author?

He's pretty good. Like I said, he pioneered punchline rap. I mean, punchline rap sucks, but he was the first one to do it and is basically the only tolerable punchline exclusive rapper. After that, it gets fucking boring.

He only had one album before he was killed, called Lifestylez ov da Poor & Dangerous. It's a solid record, and Big L is very clever, you'll have fun catching different punchlines as you listen.

Songs: Put it On, Devil's Son, Danger Zone, Street Struck.

Captain Awesome

I stopped reading your post after this^ If you truly believe Big L (who wasn't around until the mid-90's) invented or pioneered "punchline rap" then I have lost all respect for you as you clearly don't know the first thing about rap. There were punchline rappers before Big L who were ten times greater than him.

Like I say, didn't read the rest of your post as that comment you made was just ludicrous.

__________________

"If we're all merely players in a play on this great stage,
the problem is the script writers ain't on the same page,
I echo through the mountain when I'm singing in the air,
from my lab a lad with lavish lyrics living in his lair."


"Wake up and listen, hear what's not for the public's ears
Pinocchio poets played by profiting puppeteers"

Janszoon

This is the first time I've heard the term "punchline rap". What does that mean exactly?

__________________
A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man

Time & Place

25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die

last.fm

Jester

Name them.

Well, you know what a punchline is, right? The most basic form of a rap verse is 16 bars; seven bars and then the eighth is a punchline, another seven, and the final is a punchline.

The punchline is usually the most emphasized part of the verse; the beat pauses (many times, anyway), and it's often a play on words or something like that.

Examples:
"Plus I eat many emcees, but I don't gain any weight."
"My filthy mouth, it won't fight cavities or beat plaque//so i shot the tooth fairy and took my old teeth back."

Anyway, I'm sure you know what a punchline is. No need for me to rant about them (unless you'd like me to explain what a punchline is).

Punchline rap is rap that focuses only on punchlines; the rapper goes bar for bar and spits exclusively for punchlines. It's really stupid.

Sparky

I agreed with you totally jester, until this

Giving all credit to Big L for some vague genre, "punchline rap", doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Not only because he obviously didn't start it, but because pretty much every recognized rapper to ever exist has used some form of punchlines.

Jester

It's not a sub genre, it's just a style that I'm describing. Yeah, basically every rapper employs punchlines in their lyrics--they're pretty essential. However, there's a difference between using them appropriately and employing them bar after bar. That's all punchline rap is; rap that uses punchlines excessively, often bar for bar.

I never said Big L invented punchlines. However, he was the first rapper (as far as I know) who went bar for bar with basically nothing but punchlines.

Captain Awesome

1. You realise punchlines are a part of the "lyricism" I'm talking about right? and you just said they are essential for a rapper(which I disagree with btw) but does that mean you agree lyricism is essential now?

2. You say "punchline rap" is boring and yet think gangster rap is entertaining? At least punchlines require some form of wit.

3. How can you truly believe that punchline rappers didn't exist before Big L, have you even listened to any rap made before the early-mid 90s? And Big L was more than a punchline rapper anyway. His skill went far beyond punchlines/wordplay/metaphors.

__________________

"If we're all merely players in a play on this great stage,
the problem is the script writers ain't on the same page,
I echo through the mountain when I'm singing in the air,
from my lab a lad with lavish lyrics living in his lair."


"Wake up and listen, hear what's not for the public's ears
Pinocchio poets played by profiting puppeteers"