WaspStar

Nowhere did I say that SG were not influential or popular. I simply stated that I don't like them. Peter, Paul, and Mary were quite influential and popular, but they're not very good.

I have no "negative stigma about covers." There are plenty of artists who improved on another person's original song, and I never stated otherwise. In the case of Watchtower, though, I don't think anyone (Dylan himself included) ever topped the version on John Wesley Harding.

ProggyMan

I think you owe us an explanation of why they're whole career is a crime against music.

right-track

How can you ask for an explanation just because he has a different opinion to you?

ProggyMan

Uh, why not? He trashed one of my favorite bands, saying their whole career was a crime against music.

right-track

Errr...that's the point of the thread.
I happen to think Paul Simon is one of the greatest songwriters of all time, but if someone slags him off in a thread like this I'm not going to get too bothered.

ProggyMan

I'm not 'bothered' I'm just curious why he thinks that and want a reason. Doesn't look like that's happening anytime though.

WaspStar

1. To take a quote from High Fidelity, I think their music is "sentimental, tacky crap." I really can't say anything else, since that's a value judgment.

2. All the bad music they influenced. Now, granted, there are plenty of acts that spawn bad music (all the Buddy Holly/Dylan/Pistols/Nirvana ripoffs out there), but I think the "singer songwriter" movement that Simon did a great part to inspire was a serious impediment to rock's development. In the early 70's, instead of the Who and the Kinks, we got James Taylor, Carly Simon, Jackson Browne, and Paul Simon. Yes, Simon and Garfunkel were influential...but in my view, their influence was a bad influence (ask me about Sgt. Pepper someday. )

3. To steal another quote (I can't remember where I read it); Simon invented "elitist songwriting." Lines like "hear my words that I might teach you" and the whole of The Dangling Conversation give the lie to anyone who thinks that Jim Morrison is the worst wanna-be poet in rock's canon.

4. The Graduate. Actually, that's a crime against film, but I think there's some overlap.

ProggyMan

How is sentimentality a negative trait? Tacky:
1. not tasteful or fashionable; dowdy.
2. shabby in appearance; shoddy: a tacky, jerry-built housing development.
3. crass; cheaply vulgar; tasteless; crude.
4. gaudy; flashy; showy.
I think S&G is plenty tasteful, with beautiful melodies and great lyrics. There's great craftmanship, certainly not shabby. Crass? Showy? Songs like The Boxer, The Only Boy Living In New York certainly aren't.

Every act has influenced bad music, from The Beatles to MBV. This isn't about their music.

One line from their second single? Sorry, not going to cut it. Most of their lyrics are very down to earth and oftentimes humorous. Wanna be poet? Seems like Simon's the real deal to me.
Its a still life water color,
Of a now late afternoon,
As the sun shines through the curtained lace
And shadows wash the room.
And we sit and drink our coffee
Couched in our indifference,
Like shells upon the shore
You can hear the ocean roar
In the dangling conversation
And the superficial sighs,
Are the borders of our lives.

And you read your emily ****inson,
And I my robert frost,
And we note our place with bookmarkers
That measure what we've lost.
Like a poem poorly written
We are verses out of rhythm,
Couplets out of rhyme,
In syncopated time
Lost in the dangling conversation
And the superficial sighs,
Are the borders of our lives.

Yes, we speak of things that matter,
With words that must be said,
Can analysis be worthwhile?
Is the theater really dead?
And how the room is softly faded
And I only kiss your shadow,
I cannot feel your hand,
Youre a stranger now unto me
Lost in the dangling conversation.
And the superficial sighs,
In the borders of our lives.

WaspStar

To me, sentimentality is, with very rare exceptions, a killer for songs. I can't stand the cheese in Paul Simon songs. I would definitely say that The Boxer is showy, with all of the novelty instruments and techniques (particularly the elevator-shaft drum echo). Compare the BOTW version to Dylan's version; ok, so the "duet" might suck, but the arrangement is less melodramatic, less flashy. I don't find Simon's melodies particularly beautiful or his lyrics particularly moving or well constructed, but to each his own.

Yes, every act has influenced bad music (a fact I admitted), but I think that when a group's influence has such a wide-ranging negative effect, it can be considered a "crime against music". (You're taking this far too seriously, I imagine. If someone said that the Sex Pistols committed a crime against music by making tunelessness a virtue, I'd laugh it off and figure that it's only their opinion).

I happen to think that The Dangling Conversation is one of the absolute worst lyrics ever written. Their other songs aren't far behind (and I only cited one line because it was the one that first came to mind; I could post every lyric Simon's written if you like). Again, it's a value judgment. To some people, Jim Morrison is a brilliant poet. To others, he's a hack. Neither position is right or wrong.

ProggyMan

Well alright, seems like there's not much to argue. agree to disagree I suppose.