Most Underrated/Overrated Artists (blues, beatles, u2, springsteen, Nickelback)

TockTockTock · 12-30-2010, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachsd

In every band (no matter how lopsided the talent is) all the members play a role, so I think that argument is kind of moot. Nobody is saying Reed just sat there and plucked at his guitar. With that being said, I really don't think Reed's lyrics played as much of a role in VU's success as Cale's amazing production did. What The Velvet Underground is known for and truly respected for is it's avant-garde approach to music. I've never met someone that lauded the group's lyric writing as much as their music writing.

And yeah, I'll check out New York. I don't think I've gotten around to listening to that yet and it's been on my to-do list.

Bands and musicians all the time have a focal person in the group. Look at the Doors. Jim Morrison MADE that band. Sure, the others were versatile at their instruments, but Morrison was the only reason why they were great. Also, look at the Jimi Hendrix Experience. Again, Hendrix MADE the band. With the Velvet Underground all of them contributed equally. Sterling Morrison played a huge role in the overall production of the first record and Maurine Tucker invented drumming of punk, not to mention held a delightful philosophy of percussion instruments. And yes, Reed's lyrics DID play just as much as a role as Cale's avant-garde feel. Many musicologists (yes, that's a word) cite how revolutionary the subjects he brought up were, not to mention the poet value they held. Look at the lyrics of "Black Angel's Death Song" (my favorite song from & Nico besides "Heroin" and "Venus in Furs." Don't get me wrong though, Cale played a HUGE HUGE HUGE role in the Velvets' sound. Like I said, I think they were all equal in their own way. I mean... Cale (along with La Monte Young's help) invented drone music (especially in rock and pop culture). By the way, I am enjoying this discussion. I love talking about VU (as well as other avant garde and experimental musicians).

clutnuckle · 12-30-2010, 10:49 PM

Of course they all 'played a role'. That doesn't matter; it's very seldom where bands have members that contribute absolutely zero to the sound. Even the most out-of-the-know drummers typically formulate their own patterns.

What matters is, that when Cale LEFT the band, the band became less inventive, more reserved, and 'worse'. And it's not coincidental. He was obviously the driving force behind what made them so great. So what if everybody else did their share? His share was clearly the most important in making the band an original force to be reckoned with. If that weren't the case, their next 2 albums (3 if you count that Doug Yule trainwreck) would have carried equal merit to the first 2. Moe clearly could drum like a monster at times ("Sister Ray"), so why is it that she never even came CLOSE to doing anything remotely mindblowing/original on their 3rd/4th album? Without Cale's presence, they were perfectly fine with settling down to writing pop tunes, even though they were capable of far more amazing things. Nothing wrong with that, but give Cale credit where credit is due.

And I personally find their self-titled to be a great album, too, but I'd be lying if I said it were up to par with WL/WH and & Nico in terms of original sound and generally awesomeness.

TockTockTock · 12-30-2010, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clutnuckle

Of course they all 'played a role'. That doesn't matter; it's very seldom where bands have members that contribute absolutely zero to the sound. Even the most out-of-the-know drummers typically formulate their own patterns.

What matters is, that when Cale LEFT the band, the band became less inventive, more reserved, and 'worse'. And it's not coincidental. He was obviously the driving force behind what made them so great. So what if everybody else did their share? His share was clearly the most important in making the band an original force to be reckoned with. If that weren't the case, their next 2 albums (3 if you count that Doug Yule trainwreck) would have carried equal merit to the first 2.

And I personally find their self-titled to be a great album, too, but I'd be lying if I said it were up to par with WL/WH and & Nico in terms of original sound and generally awesomeness.

When he left he took the experimental feel out of it all. I wouldn't say he was the "driving force" behind their greatness, though. Yea, their self-titled is nothing in comparison with their first two albums, but that's because a member left and it changed dramatically. I am not saying Cale didn't contribute. He helped revolutionize the sound of rock, but he was not the main factor that made them so great. And I am not saying that they just contributed to the band. I am saying they contributed EQUALLY. Also, many people consider their self-titled to be just as great as their first two (I don't, but some do). They became more of a rock band and less than an artistic group.

clutnuckle · 12-30-2010, 10:59 PM

I edited my post but you must have replied before I finished, so I'll just say that part again:

Moe clearly could drum like a monster at times ("Sister Ray"), so why is it that she never even came CLOSE to doing anything remotely mindblowing/original on their 3rd/4th album? Lou Reed's monstrous voice comes out KIND OF on "Beginning to See the Light". Where else? Half of the songs on WL/WH involve him pushing his vocal limits, singing about the obscene, and whatnot. Without Cale's presence, they were perfectly fine with settling down to writing pop tunes, even though they were capable of far more amazing things. Nothing wrong with that, but give Cale credit where credit is due.

^ Yes. They were all very talented people who each brought interesting colors to the band. Cale, however, was the only reason these colors were able to come out. Without Cale, their musical aspirations shrunk. Anybody can be talented, but Cale was a) talented, and b) was able to draw the talent out of others to the surface.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackPat

Also, many people consider their self-titled to be just as great as their first two (I don't, but some do). They became more of a rock band and less than an artistic group.

These people... Well... It's clear what they prefer. I really don't want to argue over why the inventiveness of their first two albums trumps the sedated vibes of the 3rd/4th/5th, as I think it's crystal clear. These people clearly have a certain preference, which is perfectly fine, but it's an 'objective v.s. subjective' thing that honestly would cause nothing but trouble to argue about.

Dotoar · 12-30-2010, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackPat

Bands and musicians all the time have a focal person in the group. Look at the Doors. Jim Morrison MADE that band. Sure, the others were versatile at their instruments, but Morrison was the only reason why they were great.

I just can't let that one slip away. Doors are a typical example of a band equally made up of its parts, which is obvious if one cares to look beyond the hype of Morrison. He may have been the visionary of the band but the musical know-how came from the rest, and especially from Manzarek. In order to connect with the thread topic, I gotta say that Morrison is one overrated fella.

zachsd · 12-31-2010, 01:52 AM

Quote:

They were all very talented people who each brought interesting colors to the band. Cale, however, was the only reason these colors were able to come out. Without Cale, their musical aspirations shrunk. Anybody can be talented, but Cale was a) talented, and b) was able to draw the talent out of others to the surface.

Interesting point with B. I've never really thought of John Cale that way but the more I think about it the more it makes a lot of sense. Looking at the albums he produced after The Velvet Underground (not including his own of course), it really seems like he was able to bring out the best in other musicians. A case in point was Patti Smith and Horses. In my opinion, and I think I share this opinion with a lot of people, Horses was by far her best album. I also don't think it was a coincidence that Cale produced it. Another album that comes to mind is The Stooges' self-titled, which was also an amazing work. Both Horses and The Stooges are not only great albums, but carry on Cale's influence of producing music way of ahead of its time. This can be seen in his influence on the protopunk scene in general. Cale is really an undiscovered gem in my opinion; a man that always seemed to be working behind the scenes, but man was he working.

I guess that's what separates a great musician from a great producer.

Another great musician/producer that got swallowed up (at least to a certain extent) by the popularity of another bandmate is Johnny Marr. Generally I find his work with The Smiths to be a lot better than Morrissey's, I also think his solo stuff shows a versatility that Morrissey definitely lacks.

TockTockTock · 12-31-2010, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachsd

Interesting point with B. I've never really thought of John Cale that way but the more I think about it the more it makes a lot of sense. Looking at the albums he produced after The Velvet Underground (not including his own of course), it really seems like he was able to bring out the best in other musicians. A case in point was Patti Smith and Horses. In my opinion, and I think I share this opinion with a lot of people, Horses was by far her best album. I also don't think it was a coincidence that Cale produced it. Another album that comes to mind is The Stooges' self-titled, which was also an amazing work. Both Horses and The Stooges are not only great albums, but carry on Cale's influence of producing music way of ahead of its time. This can be seen in his influence on the protopunk scene in general. Cale is really an undiscovered gem in my opinion; a man that always seemed to be working behind the scenes, but man was he working.

I guess that's what separates a great musician from a great producer.

Another great musician/producer that got swallowed up (at least to a certain extent) by the popularity of another bandmate is Johnny Marr. Generally I find his work with The Smiths to be a lot better than Morrissey's, I also think his solo stuff shows a versatility that Morrissey definitely lacks.

Good point... Horses WAS her best album, and he did help a lot with the Stooges' debut. Didn't he help write "We Will Fall" with them? Although, I can't say his solo albums are all that interesting. I don't see any avant-garde in it at all (which disappoints me).

As for the rest of the debate, I can't say I disagree or agree with him. I could argue all day about this but we won't hey anywhere. I just feel uncomfortable with giving Cale more credit than Reed.

12-30-2010, 10:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
clutnuckle Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: -_-_-_-_~__~-~_-`_`-~_-`-~-~ Posts: 1,276	Of course they all 'played a role'. That doesn't matter; it's very seldom where bands have members that contribute absolutely zero to the sound. Even the most out-of-the-know drummers typically formulate their own patterns. What matters is, that when Cale LEFT the band, the band became less inventive, more reserved, and 'worse'. And it's not coincidental. He was obviously the driving force behind what made them so great. So what if everybody else did their share? His share was clearly the most important in making the band an original force to be reckoned with. If that weren't the case, their next 2 albums (3 if you count that Doug Yule trainwreck) would have carried equal merit to the first 2. Moe clearly could drum like a monster at times ("Sister Ray"), so why is it that she never even came CLOSE to doing anything remotely mindblowing/original on their 3rd/4th album? Without Cale's presence, they were perfectly fine with settling down to writing pop tunes, even though they were capable of far more amazing things. Nothing wrong with that, but give Cale credit where credit is due. And I personally find their self-titled to be a great album, too, but I'd be lying if I said it were up to par with WL/WH and & Nico in terms of original sound and generally awesomeness.