Top-50 All-time (Rough Draft) (electronic, punk, rock, musical genre, album)

MHDTV · 07-30-2007, 07:35 PM

There's a lot of give and takes in life Ethan. While I agree that it is ridiculous, sometimes you have to compromise.

sleepy jack · 07-30-2007, 07:40 PM

I don't know I thought the idea was to create an actual top 50 band list and all i've seen is him going "no they're not going". I don't even think I need to explain why its ridiculous Green Day are on there but the Ramones are getting removed.

MHDTV · 07-30-2007, 07:43 PM

Ok then, argue the subject with him.

sleepy jack · 07-30-2007, 07:49 PM

As soon as I get an actual reason to why Green Day actually deserve to be on there.

MHDTV · 07-30-2007, 07:52 PM

They changed our culture by making pop-punk popular, and they made one very good album.

MHDTV · 07-30-2007, 07:52 PM

Not much as you can see.

sleepy jack · 07-30-2007, 08:15 PM

The Ramones never got popular until very recently, but now they're extremely popular. They frequently appear on greatest bands lists, normally I don't use that because in alot of cases it doesn't mean much, but vh1, rolling stone, Spin put them as number 2 following the beatles and they were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, though lately that doesn't say much.

They're influence is huge, Metallica, Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, Tom Waits, the Offspring, Rancid, Guns and Roses, L7, Bad Religion, Motorhead, the Queers, Rooney, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pete Yorn, the Pretenders, Garbage, Bad Brains, and Megadeth. Plus they're one of the most influential punk bands ever, and arguably the most influential pop-punk band. They were a huge influence on Green Day, their kids were named after them.

The only reason he gave for inducting them that I saw was

Quote:

I think History will be kind to them and I don't understand why everyone hates them so much. Say what you will they are popular as all hell among fans of several genres and nobody is apathetic about them, the illicit strong feelings in most cases.

Really, the only points are, that history may be kind to them, complete guess work, people having strong feelings about them (which doesn't mean much at all, most popular bands people have strong feelings about) and of course, they're popular. Well that is the only actual reason, and lets look at some popular artists shall we? 50 Cent, Jessica Simpson, Pink, Fergie, Fall Out Boy, Simple Plan, Beyonce, do I need to go on? Popularity doesn't mean shit.

Quote:

ERA: The last 100 years of Rock and Roll Music
Genres: All major genres with a Rock & Roll connection
Factors for ranking
#1 Popular Opinion - How is the band viewed both by the public as a whole and amongst their peers.
#2 Commercial Success - Albums sold, Awards won etc.
#3 Longevity - How has the band or artist stood the test of time. Are they still relevant and respected or have they become tacky.
#4 Technical Ability - How good are they at writing songs and playing their instruments
#5 Showmanship - How are their lives shows, TV appearances, interviews etc.
#6 Groundbreakings - What was their impact on culture as a whole, the music world and their genre
#7 Personal Opinion - It's my list it will in part reflect that naturally. I have an eclectic musical taste but am of course as prone to bias as anyone.

Popular Opinion: Well, I see the Ramones bashed for being too 'simple' but for the most part people like them alot.
Commercial Success: I don't know about awards, but lately they've sold alot of albums. I'll grab their album sales if you want me to.
Longevity: Over 30 years and still respected and loved.
Technical Ability: Not very, but this punk not metal.
Showmanship: I've read one interview with Joey Ramone, it was interesting I don't see why interviews matter I mean what does it have to do with music? Look at Nick Drake, I guess showmanship wise he would've technically sucked but does that make him bad? No. The Ramones were amazing live from what i've heard/seen.
Groundbreakings: I already posted about how influential they were, they weren't a super original punk band there were others doing similar stuff but they certainly were one of the best at it.
Personal Opinion: Well obviously they fail that, which is probably going to be the problem with this list.

With the exception of Personal Opinion, I think the Ramones have Green Day beat in every category.

MHDTV · 07-30-2007, 08:34 PM

If he doesn't listen to that he just won't listen. Personally I think the Clash are the only top 50 worthy punk band.

Son of JayJamJah · 07-30-2007, 10:28 PM

@ Crowquill

I've made several arguments for why I have included Green Day so highly and while I think you and I got off on the wrong foot, I will say you have articulated your point well and I'll offer you my counterpoint. Thank you for using my criteria...

Popular Opinion: The Ramones have recently finally been given there due, I agree meanwhile Green Day won last years best Rock album Grammy. I know a lot more Green Day fans then Ramone fans a lot of that may be generational and also due to the fact that punk rock (which the Ramones are and Green Day was) is more of a social movement then a musical genre. I would say this category is a push.

Commercial Success: Green Day by a landslide. Over 60 million records sold in their 15+ year history, and Three Grammy awards including both best Punk and Rock album (Dookie and American Idiot) The Ramones sold less then a third that many records and were wrongfully dissed by critics of their era but nonetheless.

Longevity: Tricky one. Green Day has been one of the biggest Rock Bands on the scene consistently for 13 years, the Ramones popularity has dipped and spiked and all the changes in the bands line-up also hurt them in this category which I give to Green Day.

Technical Ability: Don't deny their abilities even though their style was simplistic, take a look at some Beatles songs in sheet music form and see how complex they were. Again probably a push, but I'd give a slight edge to the Green Day because they had a generation to watch and learn from.

Showmanship: I saw the Ramones in the early eighties when the band was made up of the three originals and Marky on drums they blew me away with their energy and stage presence. Same thing with Green Day, I was not a huge fan until I saw them live at Pine Knob in Michigan in the late 1990's, I saw them on last years American Idiot tour as well and they were again out of this world good. Both bands are better live then on record and that counts for something big. Edge to the Ramones because they were the innovators.

Groundbreakings: For sure the Ramones here. Without them no Green Day, no Chilli Peppers and on and on as we know them. Green Day has lead to the proliferation of loust bands like Good Charlotte sadly.

Personal Opinion: Don't criticize me for having an opinion when that's the point of making a list like this. I think Green Day is a much better band with far more songs I enjoy yes, but I have spent two weeks already on this list and have done my homework. I have hundreds of lists in front of me and record sales and discographies for all the bands on my list, also I have been listening to bands one after another comparing them as best and fairly as I can. I am trying to eliminate as much bias as possible and if you remember I did take the Ramones out and put them back in so while they are not a personal favorite I respect their importance to music and want to recognize it in my list. If my attempts to be fair and thoughtful are not enough for you then piss off; otherwise I'd love to hear more of your well said and insightful opinions.

Thanks

P.S. The Ramones aren't going anywhere, you've convinced me to convince myself they must stay.

Son of JayJamJah · 07-30-2007, 10:38 PM

Also Crowquill
quoting you...
" Well that is the only actual reason, and lets look at some popular artists shall we? 50 Cent, Jessica Simpson, Pink, Fergie, Fall Out Boy, Simple Plan, Beyonce, do I need to go on? Popularity doesn't mean ****."

None of those bands are nearly as successful as Green Day nor have they combined had a thirteen year career. And if the Ramones had Boobs like Jessica Simpson they'd be number one on my list. Popularity however does mean ****, it's just not everything. The groups you named are fads they will go as quick as they came. Look at New Kids on the Block, n'Sync and the Back street men or Brittney Spears and Tiffany as examples. The cream always rises over time homey.

I am not afraid to admit when i am wrong. System of a Down is off the list completely despite the fact I like them better then at least 30 of the artists on the list. That's just one example, Bad Company, Jack Johnson, Ben Folds are three other personal favorites that will not touch this list.

Can you and I find common ground? We're both clearly huge music fans which makes us way cooler then most people right?

07-30-2007, 10:28 PM	#139 (permalink)
Son of JayJamJah Occams Razor Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: End of the Earth Posts: 2,472	@ Crowquill I've made several arguments for why I have included Green Day so highly and while I think you and I got off on the wrong foot, I will say you have articulated your point well and I'll offer you my counterpoint. Thank you for using my criteria... Popular Opinion: The Ramones have recently finally been given there due, I agree meanwhile Green Day won last years best Rock album Grammy. I know a lot more Green Day fans then Ramone fans a lot of that may be generational and also due to the fact that punk rock (which the Ramones are and Green Day was) is more of a social movement then a musical genre. I would say this category is a push. Commercial Success: Green Day by a landslide. Over 60 million records sold in their 15+ year history, and Three Grammy awards including both best Punk and Rock album (Dookie and American Idiot) The Ramones sold less then a third that many records and were wrongfully dissed by critics of their era but nonetheless. Longevity: Tricky one. Green Day has been one of the biggest Rock Bands on the scene consistently for 13 years, the Ramones popularity has dipped and spiked and all the changes in the bands line-up also hurt them in this category which I give to Green Day. Technical Ability: Don't deny their abilities even though their style was simplistic, take a look at some Beatles songs in sheet music form and see how complex they were. Again probably a push, but I'd give a slight edge to the Green Day because they had a generation to watch and learn from. Showmanship: I saw the Ramones in the early eighties when the band was made up of the three originals and Marky on drums they blew me away with their energy and stage presence. Same thing with Green Day, I was not a huge fan until I saw them live at Pine Knob in Michigan in the late 1990's, I saw them on last years American Idiot tour as well and they were again out of this world good. Both bands are better live then on record and that counts for something big. Edge to the Ramones because they were the innovators. Groundbreakings: For sure the Ramones here. Without them no Green Day, no Chilli Peppers and on and on as we know them. Green Day has lead to the proliferation of loust bands like Good Charlotte sadly. Personal Opinion: Don't criticize me for having an opinion when that's the point of making a list like this. I think Green Day is a much better band with far more songs I enjoy yes, but I have spent two weeks already on this list and have done my homework. I have hundreds of lists in front of me and record sales and discographies for all the bands on my list, also I have been listening to bands one after another comparing them as best and fairly as I can. I am trying to eliminate as much bias as possible and if you remember I did take the Ramones out and put them back in so while they are not a personal favorite I respect their importance to music and want to recognize it in my list. If my attempts to be fair and thoughtful are not enough for you then piss off; otherwise I'd love to hear more of your well said and insightful opinions. Thanks P.S. The Ramones aren't going anywhere, you've convinced me to convince myself they must stay. Last edited by Son of JayJamJah; 07-30-2007 at 10:35 PM.

07-30-2007, 10:38 PM	#140 (permalink)
Son of JayJamJah Occams Razor Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: End of the Earth Posts: 2,472	Also Crowquill quoting you... " Well that is the only actual reason, and lets look at some popular artists shall we? 50 Cent, Jessica Simpson, Pink, Fergie, Fall Out Boy, Simple Plan, Beyonce, do I need to go on? Popularity doesn't mean **." None of those bands are nearly as successful as Green Day nor have they combined had a thirteen year career. And if the Ramones had Boobs like Jessica Simpson they'd be number one on my list. Popularity however does mean **, it's just not everything. The groups you named are fads they will go as quick as they came. Look at New Kids on the Block, n'Sync and the Back street men or Brittney Spears and Tiffany as examples. The cream always rises over time homey. I am not afraid to admit when i am wrong. System of a Down is off the list completely despite the fact I like them better then at least 30 of the artists on the list. That's just one example, Bad Company, Jack Johnson, Ben Folds are three other personal favorites that will not touch this list. Can you and I find common ground? We're both clearly huge music fans which makes us way cooler then most people right?