Soulflower

There are facts that support my opinion which is what I meant.

Soulflower

LOL

Welcome back!

Frownland

Never said anything about backup dancers. I was using the same logic as you were by finding something that contributed to an artist's iconography and writing it off as a gimmick. Also, well established artists are just as capable of using gimmicks (you could argue that some turn to it in an attempt to stay relevant but that's a different discussion) than anyone else.

(1) I never said they weren't, (2) it's impossible to prove a negative, and (3) being chock full of gimmicks does not derive from someone being an icon. An icon comes from popularity and making waves in pop culture, basically because they are household names and spark discussion, they are icons. A good lot of people know who they are and since they are so recognizable, they achieve that status. We just seem to fundamentally disagree on what makes an icon it seems.

Beyonce's performances at the VMAs and Superbowl were discussed more than the events themselves. If that's not iconic to you refer to my above statement. And basically any performance of Lady Gaga's that was served to a wide public platform (VMAs, SNL, Jimmy Kimmel and such) went over extremely well and are iconic because of the hugely theatrical elements of the shows being so unique to Gaga (for the most part).

The use of extra-musical outlets to help achieve more fame such as the outfits, the music videos, and the impressive performances make Lady Gaga, MJ, and Beyonce alike because they all used those things to promote themselves in the public eye. I'm sorry that you don't see the similarity. Plus they're pop stars I think that's a pretty big similarity.

I'm not angry, I just find your debating style to be obnoxious. It always turns out to just be a big headache.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Sequoioideae

It seems that a good portion of the forum that feels that way.

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Funnel From Another Lover

God Is My Solar System

Soulflower

You implied his usage of dancing was a gimmick that made him a superstar and I mentioned his performance style in the early 70's and 80's because he barely did choreograph dancing. He mostly sung with a microphone and did his own interactive moves while singing.

He did not begin to use choreograph dance movements in his live shows until around 1987/1988.

I am trying to figure out why you think it was gimmick when he did not wear the same outfit or did the same dance moves in every performance he did. He did not rely on those things for all his performances. The Motown 25 performance did not make him a superstar, he was already a superstar before that.

So how was the things he implemented in that performance a gimmick when he did not use those things for ALL his performances?

I think he came up with iconic dance moves to go along with an iconic song. He also came up with memorable iconic attire for the performance. I don't see how it is a gimmick when did not profit off from it every performance.

If it was a gimmick why didn't he wear the same attire in every performance at his concerts or at his live shows?

This makes no sense.

Michael was exceptionally talented please don't insult him by calling him a gimmick.

This is true but I am still trying to figure out why you feel that Motown performance was a gimmick when he did not wear that same outfit every performance he did lol

Someone who uses a gimmick is going to consistently use it because that is their draw and what brings them proft.

For example,
The one piece leotard Beyonce wears in all her performances is a gimmick. The big blonde weave that she has worn in the last 10 years is a gimmick. The booty shaking and pussy popping she does on stage is a gimmick. The color of her leotard may change but she pretty much sticks to this gimmick formula when it comes to her stage outfits. That is her gimmick.

Likewise with Lady Gaga, who always wear some over the top outfit in her performances.

Why do they have to constantly do all these things (tricks and pr tactics to distract from their music ) if they make "iconic" music as you say since you say they are "icons"?

At least Michael had creative performances and constantly pushed himself to be greater in his live shows. He did not stick to the same formula and he pushed himself creatively with his music. .


It is impossible to prove what?

There aren't any of this generation and that is mainly because of the pop industry itself. They have sliced the competition and only choose to promote certain artists. They don't want variety. So it prevents new talents from being discovered and we are force fed the same artists over and over not necessarily because they are icons or great but because that is only what the industry is choosing to market.

Icons spark discussion based off of their cultural impact and iconic moments.

Just because someone is famous in pop culture does not automatically make them an Icon, c'mon.


So you are saying being really popular makes you an Icon?

We do have a different definition of what makes an Icon because I don't consider Beyonce, Gaga, Perry, Bieber, Usher and so forth to be Icons. I think it is fair to call them superstars but Icons they are not. They have no Iconic albums or Iconic moments in pop culture.

Beyonce's Super bowl performance had really low ratings.

It was lower than Bruno Mars who has the highest watched half time show of all time. Bruno's half time was even bigger Madonna's ..... MADONNA and Beyonce is a more bigger star than Bruno!!

That shows that people did not care to watch her.

Recently this pass Sunday at the VMA's they gave her a prestigious fake award and she performed a 20 minute set and it was the lowest rating MTV show in 5 years.

Beyonce has an excellent PR machine and since she has alot of money she can buy publications to support her but her albums sell are lower compared to her peers and she is mostly just hype don't drink her koolaid.







How can it be iconic when people did not tune it to watch her? lol How can it be iconic when more people tuned in to see a Bruno Mars icompared to her? Bruno even surpassed Madonna!

The next day after the Super Bowl, I remember people saying "What songs did she sing" because she has no recognizable iconic songs.

She is not Icon. She is very overrated.


So since she performed at the VMA's, SNL and Jimmy Kimmel that makes her an Icon?

Once again, where she performed is irrelevant. She could perform in front of the President of the United States, it still wouldn't make her an icon unless it made some cultural impact on people. It is about her performances resonating with people and the impact of her performances that make her an Icon.

Using theatrical elements in her shows does not make her an Icon. She is a pop star with a bland music discography so she has to rely on theatrics to keep people interested. That is her gimmick. She also rips off Madonna, Boy George and Elton John a lot. She needs to come up with her style and image There can't be two Madonna's because there is already one.


Performances, music videos, and costumes is all apart of show business. ALL pop artists perform and create music videos. How is it extra when it is apart of the business?

Extra is showing up at an award show in an Egg

Extra is popping your booty and wearing skimpy clothes in every performance.

They are only similar because they are pop stars.....but they are NOT the same...period.

Its insulting that you are comparing Jackson to these gimmicks. You don't have to like him but don't insult the man and his accomplishments and his contributions. You are minimizing his talents and his contributions to music like he was "just another pop star" and he was not. Beyonce and Gaga are NO WHERE in his caliber. They are NOT the same. Michael Jackson is a legend.



It seemed like you were because you were cursing in frustration. I don't see how I am being obnoxious. I am not calling you out your name or disrespecting you.

Frownland

Ugh. I'm done.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Soulflower

Unpopular opinion: People who come to music forums but bag on people for debating and being opinionated on a discussion board.

Why come to a music forum if you don't want to discuss with other people or don't want to hear opinionated views? I will never understand that.

Frownland

Yeah you're right. Inconsistent claims, circular reasoning, outright stubbornness, misconstruing opinion as fact, and lacking the ability to infer anything beyond what is explicitly stated get a bad rap.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Soulflower

I would like to see facts to support all of this.

If you think my claims are inconsistent why not prove that?

If you think I have circular reasoning, why not show that?

If you think I am stubborn or misconstruing an opinion as fact why don't you show info that shows otherwise?

If you think I am lacking the ability to infer anything why not show it by expressing your opinion in an intelligent way instead of giving me labels?

Gimme gimme gimme, I wants to hear it!

Goofle

All I got from all of this is another name to add to the icon list. Bruno Mars.

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