3 peice outfit (instrumental, rock, cds, albums, fan)

TheBig3 · 03-30-2006, 02:29 PM

I had such high hopes for this thread and it was turned into a semantics fest. We need a moratorim on people trying to look intellectual by using academise.

Though i do like your idea sonnet, jugs are always fun.

mosesandtherubberducky · 03-30-2006, 03:39 PM

There are some bands that don't have the complete outfit. The White Stripes are missing a bassist and DFA79 is without a guitar. Although some bands change the emphasis from the guitar (which is normally the most present instrument) to the bass (like Primus) or even the drums. So bands do good with adding keys while others need to keep that core group because when they add more they fuck it up. There is still a lot to be done with each instrument. The guitar and bass aren't very old instruments and haven't had much time for everything to be discovered on them.

Slap bass is fairly new compared to regular bass and the electric solid body guitar is only 52 years old. There is still a lot that can be done with those two instruments. Mainly because there are effects that are easily accessable for them that can change their sound totally. Drums are older and are an acoustic instrument. You can't really add effects to drums with out having mics for them or having an electric drumset (I want one that has a signal in/out so I can plug some different pedals into it to see what sounds I can get) Tapping on the guitar isn't even 30 years old. Tom Morello can make his sound like a turn table. Les Claypool is just insane and the bassist from Mudvane (spelling?) has created a new playing style for the bass.

I think that the core outfit shouldn't be messed with until it is mastered.

Merkaba · 03-30-2006, 04:02 PM

Nicely said, but I somewhat disagree. I think it is the smaller bands who have to diversify more, since they have less overall sound to play with in order to be original. The smaller bands are more likely to create something unique because they can't be that successful without doing something unique. I think a lot of the larger outfits look to the smaller ones for ideas.

I don't think a core outfit can be mastered until the little bands have played all their cards.

boo boo · 03-30-2006, 04:32 PM

ELP consist of a keyboardist, bassist and drummer.

And then of course we have several bands who lack a bass player...The White Stripes, The Black Keys, Sleater Kinney, Yeah Yeah yeahs, Secret Machines....The Doors could count too though Manzerek played bass parts on his keyboard...Most prog bands have ensembles that are uncommon in most rock...And they are rarely 3 piece, though Rush and ELP are among the exceptions.

If i could list 3 piece bands where all the members have done crazy and experiemental things with their instrument, i would say.

Primus
Tool
Rage Against The Machine
ELP
Cream
The Who
Rush
Black Sabbath
Led Zeppelin

Of course i think this would be easier if it werent just 3 piece outfits.

DontRunMeOver · 03-30-2006, 04:44 PM

Nobody's really answered your question yet though, have they? I'll put down a simpler answer now and add details, arguments and changes depending on other answers. Again, love the topic.

1. Why the traditional three piece is fine and shouldn't be messed with

The traditional three piece (and also four/five-pieces with extra guitars or synth/keys) is fine because each of the instruments fit together nicely in terms of pitch - with the drum kit unpitched, the bass on low frequencies, the rhythm guitar on mid-frequencies and the lead instrument (keys, guitar or singing) on higher notes. The bass/guitar/drums rhythm section combination also allows for detailed rhythmic interplay, due to the percussive nature of all of the instruments.

2. What they should replace the traditional three piece with

For the purposes of creating an energetic, passionate, instinctive style similar to current rock guitar band styles (that's the style I'm after, although it could be used for other guitar bands too), but using different sounds, I would say that we'd need to use other instruments which have similar rhythmic capabilities to the guitars and drum kit. To provide pure rhythm, another type of drum section could be used (as the kit is the cliche we're trying to move away from, not drums in general).

For pure energetic, sexy drive, I'd go for an african type drum section - three drummers, one on a big, bassy drum; one on a piercing mid-range drum and the other on little bongos. All of them miked up. I'd consider a samba section, but that'd involve too many drummers and would take up too much space in the mix.

For the bass notes, important for the 'groove' you need for my favourite rock,
I'd go for a dance-synth bass sound. A big, fat, raunchy noise. Like a randy elephant. You could use it to play around with the noise you get and its usually easy to get a decent pulse going when you only play one note.

And most importantly, I'd get rid of the guitars. Guitar music is great, but the six-string guitar must be the most over-used and over-played instrument of modern times. There aren't that many pitched percussive instruments and the piano (which is one) has also been over-used. How about a vibraphone, with effects pedals?

So my suggestion for a 5-piece set up, to take over the rock business, is:
3 drummers on a simplified african-style drum section.
1 bass-synth, with lots of dirty bass noises.
1 vibraphone player, with a selection of effect pedals at his/her feet.

3. Why it has survived this long

Partly for the reasons suggested in 1, that the set-up is a practical way to play a variety of music, particularly those styles requiring very rhythmic harmonic backing. The other reason is that guitars, basses and drum-kits are widely available, as is suitable amplification. Plus, the instruments are taught at a lot of schools. The overwhelming popularity of musical styles which use these instruments amongst young people perpetuates it. Big3, you made a very good point about the effort which has gone into the guitar-band setup, to develop it to the point it is at today. There must be many other contributing factors but I've run out of ideas for now...

4. and 5.

I'm going to leave these for now... Out of brain-power.

boo boo · 03-30-2006, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DontRunMeOver

1. Why the traditional three piece is fine and shouldn't be messed with

The traditional three piece (and also four/five-pieces with extra guitars or synth/keys) is fine because each of the instruments fit together nicely in terms of pitch - with the drum kit unpitched, the bass on low frequencies, the rhythm guitar on mid-frequencies and the lead instrument (keys, guitar or singing) on higher notes. The bass/guitar/drums rhythm section combination also allows for detailed rhythmic interplay, due to the percussive nature of all of the instruments.

True, but i think with the right tuning, some effort and musical know how, you could pick 3 random instruments and make a good ensemble with them.

Quote:

2. What they should replace the traditional three piece with

For the purposes of creating an energetic, passionate, instinctive style similar to current rock guitar band styles (that's the style I'm after, although it could be used for other guitar bands too), but using different sounds, I would say that we'd need to use other instruments which have similar rhythmic capabilities to the guitars and drum kit. To provide pure rhythm, another type of drum section could be used (as the kit is the cliche we're trying to move away from, not drums in general).

For pure energetic, sexy drive, I'd go for an african type drum section - three drummers, one on a big, bassy drum; one on a piercing mid-range drum and the other on little bongos. All of them miked up. I'd consider a samba section, but that'd involve too many drummers and would take up too much space in the mix.

For the bass notes, important for the 'groove' you need for my favourite rock,
I'd go for a dance-synth bass sound. A big, fat, raunchy noise. Like a randy elephant. You could use it to play around with the noise you get and its usually easy to get a decent pulse going when you only play one note.

And most importantly, I'd get rid of the guitars. Guitar music is great, but the six-string guitar must be the most over-used and over-played instrument of modern times. There aren't that many pitched percussive instruments and the piano (which is one) has also been over-used. How about a vibraphone, with effects pedals?

So my suggestion for a 5-piece set up, to take over the rock business, is:
3 drummers on a simplified african-style drum section.
1 bass-synth, with lots of dirty bass noises.
1 vibraphone player, with a selection of effect pedals at his/her feet.

I see potential in a rock band that consists of Accordian, Banjo, Tuba and Fiddle.

Im serious, think about it, Banjos can be used for both their rhythmic and percussion potential, Arcordian could be used mainly for rhythm and harmony, Tuba would be the obvious bass instrument and Fiddle could be the lead...This formula works for a lot of folk groups, it could very well work in a mainstream rock band.

Quote:

3. Why it has survived this long

Partly for the reasons suggested in 1, that the set-up is a practical way to play a variety of music, particularly those styles requiring very rhythmic harmonic backing. The other reason is that guitars, basses and drum-kits are widely available, as is suitable amplification. Plus, the instruments are taught at a lot of schools. The overwhelming popularity of musical styles which use these instruments amongst young people perpetuates it. Big3, you made a very good point about the effort which has gone into the guitar-band setup, to develop it to the point it is at today. There must be many other contributing factors but I've run out of ideas for now...

Agreed, a electric guitar tone can be adjusted to duplicate tones from just about any other type of instrument.

DontRunMeOver · 03-30-2006, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boo boo

True, but i think with the right tuning, some effort and musical know how, you could pick 3 random instruments and make a good ensemble with them.

That's true. It'd be difficult to play really rhythmic music with many combinations, but you can always get good music out of any selection of instruments if you've got the talent for it.

And hey, I had to name something!

Quote:

I see potential in a rock band that consists of Accordian, Banjo, Tuba and Fiddle.

Me too. On a total side-note. I heard a string quartet that used effects pedals once and made rhythm sounds by tapping their instruments at oppotune moments. Its was amazing. Could do the same with those instruments.

Quote:

Im serious, think about it, Banjos can be used for both their rhythmic and percussion potential, Arcordian could be used mainly for rhythm and harmony, Tuba would be the obvious bass instrument and Fiddle could be the lead.

Yeah, I agree. Just need to make it heavier and we're rockin'.

Quote:

Agreed, a electric guitar tone can be adjusted to duplicate tones from just about any other type of instrument.

Yes. With the right work and electronics involved, that could become true of many instruments. Its just that the developmental focus recently has been on the guitar, so its currently more flexible.

DontRunMeOver · 03-30-2006, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boo boo

True, but i think with the right tuning, some effort and musical know how, you could pick 3 random instruments and make a good ensemble with them.

That's true. It'd be difficult to play really rhythmic music with many combinations, but you can always get good music out of any selection of instruments if you've got the talent for it.

Quote:

I see potential in a rock band that consists of Accordian, Banjo, Tuba and Fiddle.

Me too. I heard a string quartet that used effects pedals once and made rhythm sounds by tapping their instruments at oppotune moments. Its was amazing.

Quote:

Im serious, think about it, Banjos can be used for both their rhythmic and percussion potential, Arcordian could be used mainly for rhythm and harmony, Tuba would be the obvious bass instrument and Fiddle could be the lead.

Yeah, I agree. Just need to make it heavier and we're rockin'.

Quote:

Agreed, a electric guitar tone can be adjusted to duplicate tones from just about any other type of instrument.

Yes. With the right work and electronics involved, that could become true of many instruments. Its just that the focus recently has been on the guitar, so its currently more flexible.

boo boo · 03-30-2006, 05:07 PM

I found this video of a guy playing over 30 instrumental parts on a cello...Its crazy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBTbC6ImCVo

tdoc210 · 03-30-2006, 05:09 PM

well rock bands should have flutes and a full ochestral string section

03-30-2006, 02:29 PM	#11 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	I had such high hopes for this thread and it was turned into a semantics fest. We need a moratorim on people trying to look intellectual by using academise. Though i do like your idea sonnet, jugs are always fun. __________________ I've moved to a new address

03-30-2006, 03:39 PM	#12 (permalink)
mosesandtherubberducky butt say x Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: so i read the question as "Where YOU live" which was kinda funny instead of "Where you live" Posts: 1,649	There are some bands that don't have the complete outfit. The White Stripes are missing a bassist and DFA79 is without a guitar. Although some bands change the emphasis from the guitar (which is normally the most present instrument) to the bass (like Primus) or even the drums. So bands do good with adding keys while others need to keep that core group because when they add more they fuck it up. There is still a lot to be done with each instrument. The guitar and bass aren't very old instruments and haven't had much time for everything to be discovered on them. Slap bass is fairly new compared to regular bass and the electric solid body guitar is only 52 years old. There is still a lot that can be done with those two instruments. Mainly because there are effects that are easily accessable for them that can change their sound totally. Drums are older and are an acoustic instrument. You can't really add effects to drums with out having mics for them or having an electric drumset (I want one that has a signal in/out so I can plug some different pedals into it to see what sounds I can get) Tapping on the guitar isn't even 30 years old. Tom Morello can make his sound like a turn table. Les Claypool is just insane and the bassist from Mudvane (spelling?) has created a new playing style for the bass. I think that the core outfit shouldn't be messed with until it is mastered. __________________ Can I have a youtube video for a sig? There's a thing that says "Wrap [YOUTUBE] tags around selected text"

03-30-2006, 04:02 PM	#13 (permalink)
Merkaba Whitewater! Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 2,885	Nicely said, but I somewhat disagree. I think it is the smaller bands who have to diversify more, since they have less overall sound to play with in order to be original. The smaller bands are more likely to create something unique because they can't be that successful without doing something unique. I think a lot of the larger outfits look to the smaller ones for ideas. I don't think a core outfit can be mastered until the little bands have played all their cards. __________________ She thinks I'm a reclusive genius, she's going to be very disappointed when she finds out i'm a reclusive wanker

03-30-2006, 05:09 PM	#20 (permalink)
tdoc210 ashes against the grain Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: new hampsha Posts: 2,617	well rock bands should have flutes and a full ochestral string section __________________ We went back there and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that.