Rape - Whose Fault Is It?

~~Cuthbert~~ · 07-08-2013, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newkie

Also agree with your false rape claim, completely disgusting and those found guilty of complete falsehoods should be punished. You been following the Remy case much? Be interesting if that's another Ched Evans saga..

Yeah I heard about it but don't know the ins and outs of the case. What's your opinion on Ched?

Quote:

Originally Posted by misspoptart

I totally agree. I also think I wasn't really being assertive enough. I wasn't sure what would happen if I started kicking and screaming, because he was a total stranger. I thought it better just to let it go, you know? But looking back on it, I should have just been like "NO!!!" and pushed him off of me. This is why I feel a bit guilty.

You can't do much more than say no tbh, what difference is there between saying no and shouting it? It means the same thing either way and he should have known that. Kicking and screaming could have just made him violent, I don't see why you should feel guilty.

djchameleon · 07-08-2013, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffy Kittens

You can't do much more than say no tbh, what difference is there between saying no and shouting it? It means the same thing either way and he should have known that. Kicking and screaming could have just made him violent, I don't see why you should feel guilty.

It's understandable for her to feel a bit guilty for letting it get that far and also not fighting back harder than she did. Just laying there and letting it happen. Rape victims tend to get to a point where they just give in and let it happen and there is where the guilt comes from instead of fighting back harder like they felt they should.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 07-08-2013, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

It's understandable for her to feel a bit guilty for letting it get that far and also not fighting back harder than she did. Just laying there and letting it happen. Rape victims tend to get to a point where they just give in and let it happen and there is where the guilt comes from instead of fighting back harder like they felt they should.

Yeah man, I can see why it happens. Just think there's nothing to be guilty about tbh.

Guybrush · 07-08-2013, 05:50 AM

There is no doubt a lot of victim blaming going on in the world (like in Egypt at the moment), but there will also be comments about whether or not people have placed themselves in danger that will look like victim blaming, even if they aren't. A lot of people probably do victim blaming unintentionally. That is, they will say it was stupid of someone to place themselves in a situation in which they got raped, but when asked whether or not the victim is to be held accountable for the crime done against him/her, they would say no.

However, there's a fine line here that people should be aware of regarding responsibility and accountability. Some of the comments I've seen on the internet leads me to think that a lot more people should reflect a bit on this. If this thread lets people do that, then that's great, even if we generally seem to agree on the answer to the question posed - that victims are not responsible.

Newkie · 07-08-2013, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffy Kittens

Yeah I heard about it but don't know the ins and outs of the case. What's your opinion on Ched?

From what I remember of the case, I seem to remember thinking he was very stupid (particularly, as a footballer) but very unlucky. I don't think "I don't remember, but I wouldn't have wanted to have sex" is a reasonable line for a victim to be honest. And being too drunk to consent? I can see the viewpoint but mhm. I don't think he should have had sex with her but at the same time I do not view him as "a rapist" but perhaps it's hypocritical of me.

I've had sex and not remembered having it the day after. I have no idea what the girl made of it at the time. Now if she felt the same, do I think that makes me a rapist? No. I've also been drunk, not remembered and gone back and not had sex and I've done the same whether I was buzzing or sober and I know I'm not someone who will ever "force it".

The whole intoxication thing is very vague with the law, especially if both partners are hammered and I don't really get it.

djchameleon · 07-08-2013, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newkie

The whole intoxication thing is very vague with the law, especially if both partners are hammered and I don't really get it.

Is it vague? I thought it just automatically sided with the female. If both partners are hammered and she wakes up the next morning and say that she was raped then you are screwed basically.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 07-08-2013, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

Is it vague? I thought it just automatically sided with the female. If both partners are hammered and she wakes up the next morning and say that she was raped then you are screwed basically.

Even more so because:

Quote:

s.75 of the 2003 act introduced presumptions. If these are present, it is presumed the victim did not consent, and the onus is then on the defendant to prove the victim did.

The presumptions are:

Quote:

The circumstances are that—
(a)any person was, at the time of the relevant act or immediately before it began, using violence against the complainant or causing the complainant to fear that immediate violence would be used against him;
(b)any person was, at the time of the relevant act or immediately before it began, causing the complainant to fear that violence was being used, or that immediate violence would be used, against another person;
(c)the complainant was, and the defendant was not, unlawfully detained at the time of the relevant act;
(d)the complainant was asleep or otherwise unconscious at the time of the relevant act;
(e)because of the complainant’s physical disability, the complainant would not have been able at the time of the relevant act to communicate to the defendant whether the complainant consented;
(f)any person had administered to or caused to be taken by the complainant, without the complainant’s consent, a substance which, having regard to when it was administered or taken, was capable of causing or enabling the complainant to be stupefied or overpowered at the time of the relevant act.

So basically, violence, threats of violence, kidnap, date-rape, disability and unconsciousness. The difficulty here is obviously with date-rape and unconsciousness.

lol at 'guilty until proven innocent'.

Newkie · 07-08-2013, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

Is it vague? I thought it just automatically sided with the female. If both partners are hammered and she wakes up the next morning and say that she was raped then you are screwed basically.

Ah yeah but I didn't just mean that, I mean its vague on what counts as "drunk" Now I am by no means a heavyweight, but I can drink a fair amount without becoming a mess. But if I drink quickly my memory can go right out the window within hours. I know girls who drink the equivalent of 6 pints and are destroyed-but remember all-whereas others might black out for the whole night on 8.

There is just no way to qualify what a person is feeling or was feeling or what they may or may not remember in a way that should hold its own in court imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffy Kittens

Even more so because:

lol at 'guilty until proven innocent'.

Standard.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 07-08-2013, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newkie

Standard.

A girl actually tried to do this to me before but she was too thick to get her story straight. I got off

Still got arrested, detained, interviewed, fingerprints and all that stuff.

I saw her not long after and just laughed in her face before getting on with my life.

Newkie · 07-08-2013, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffy Kittens

A girl actually tried to do this to me before but she was too thick to get her story straight. I got off

Still got arrested, detained, interviewed, fingerprints and all that stuff.

I saw her not long after and just laughed in her face before getting on with my life.

Ah man I'm sorry to hear that. Glad you got justice though but it's a shame she got away with it. Not been in that situation but I have had a girl lie to me about being raped, twice in fact. Once to sever me from a mate and get me to "sort him out" for her I suppose and a second time where they used it to guilt trip me, for several years actually, only found out how deep the lie went pretty recently.

It's almost enough to turn a man gay, and if every woman looked like Sabine Lisicki I would have to seriously consider my options...

View Poll Results: Can you blame the victim for getting raped when raping someone is illegal?
Yes	7	13.73%
No	44	86.27%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

07-08-2013, 05:50 AM	#84 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	There is no doubt a lot of victim blaming going on in the world (like in Egypt at the moment), but there will also be comments about whether or not people have placed themselves in danger that will look like victim blaming, even if they aren't. A lot of people probably do victim blaming unintentionally. That is, they will say it was stupid of someone to place themselves in a situation in which they got raped, but when asked whether or not the victim is to be held accountable for the crime done against him/her, they would say no. However, there's a fine line here that people should be aware of regarding responsibility and accountability. Some of the comments I've seen on the internet leads me to think that a lot more people should reflect a bit on this. If this thread lets people do that, then that's great, even if we generally seem to agree on the answer to the question posed - that victims are not responsible. __________________ Something Completely Different