Yeah I heard about it but don't know the ins and outs of the case. What's your opinion on Ched?

You can't do much more than say no tbh, what difference is there between saying no and shouting it? It means the same thing either way and he should have known that. Kicking and screaming could have just made him violent, I don't see why you should feel guilty.

It's understandable for her to feel a bit guilty for letting it get that far and also not fighting back harder than she did. Just laying there and letting it happen. Rape victims tend to get to a point where they just give in and let it happen and there is where the guilt comes from instead of fighting back harder like they felt they should.

Yeah man, I can see why it happens. Just think there's nothing to be guilty about tbh.

There is no doubt a lot of victim blaming going on in the world (like in Egypt at the moment), but there will also be comments about whether or not people have placed themselves in danger that will look like victim blaming, even if they aren't. A lot of people probably do victim blaming unintentionally. That is, they will say it was stupid of someone to place themselves in a situation in which they got raped, but when asked whether or not the victim is to be held accountable for the crime done against him/her, they would say no.

However, there's a fine line here that people should be aware of regarding responsibility and accountability. Some of the comments I've seen on the internet leads me to think that a lot more people should reflect a bit on this. If this thread lets people do that, then that's great, even if we generally seem to agree on the answer to the question posed - that victims are not responsible.

From what I remember of the case, I seem to remember thinking he was very stupid (particularly, as a footballer) but very unlucky. I don't think "I don't remember, but I wouldn't have wanted to have sex" is a reasonable line for a victim to be honest. And being too drunk to consent? I can see the viewpoint but mhm. I don't think he should have had sex with her but at the same time I do not view him as "a rapist" but perhaps it's hypocritical of me.

I've had sex and not remembered having it the day after. I have no idea what the girl made of it at the time. Now if she felt the same, do I think that makes me a rapist? No. I've also been drunk, not remembered and gone back and not had sex and I've done the same whether I was buzzing or sober and I know I'm not someone who will ever "force it".

The whole intoxication thing is very vague with the law, especially if both partners are hammered and I don't really get it.

Is it vague? I thought it just automatically sided with the female. If both partners are hammered and she wakes up the next morning and say that she was raped then you are screwed basically.

Even more so because:

The presumptions are:

So basically, violence, threats of violence, kidnap, date-rape, disability and unconsciousness. The difficulty here is obviously with date-rape and unconsciousness.

lol at 'guilty until proven innocent'.

Ah yeah but I didn't just mean that, I mean its vague on what counts as "drunk" Now I am by no means a heavyweight, but I can drink a fair amount without becoming a mess. But if I drink quickly my memory can go right out the window within hours. I know girls who drink the equivalent of 6 pints and are destroyed-but remember all-whereas others might black out for the whole night on 8.

There is just no way to qualify what a person is feeling or was feeling or what they may or may not remember in a way that should hold its own in court imo.


Standard.

A girl actually tried to do this to me before but she was too thick to get her story straight. I got off :cool:

Still got arrested, detained, interviewed, fingerprints and all that stuff.

I saw her not long after and just laughed in her face before getting on with my life.

Ah man I'm sorry to hear that. Glad you got justice though but it's a shame she got away with it. Not been in that situation but I have had a girl lie to me about being raped, twice in fact. Once to sever me from a mate and get me to "sort him out" for her I suppose and a second time where they used it to guilt trip me, for several years actually, only found out how deep the lie went pretty recently.

It's almost enough to turn a man gay, and if every woman looked like Sabine Lisicki I would have to seriously consider my options... :D

If you are talking about a western civilization then.....No.......
Why would they...........?
No means no.......regardless of anything...

With regard to other cultures.........we may not agree with their beliefs but their understanding of rights for women are and maybe different to ours...... so with that, I don't know. Other cultures have their own views on the rights of women........in some cultures it is acceptable. In ours, it is not.


The rapist........

Jilted woman who made FIVE bogus rape claims is jailed | The Sun |News

What a splendid woman. :rolleyes:

BTW Newkie, Nile Ranger has also now been charged with rape.

Only two years? She should have had two years per victim in my books. Newport crown court as well, so she's a local? Best be avoiding any one night stands with her then :laughing:

As for Ranger I can believe he'd be guilty. He's already beaten up his girlfriend and smashed her house in, he's a complete and utter ****. But there are plenty of baseless ones over footballers so maybe its someone getting on the bandwagon?

That's what I think and all. The guy's a bell-end, he has actually been arrested again for assault since being arrested for rape.

I can't find anything about the case other than the fact he's been arrested and charged, though.

false reports should be minimum 5 yr sentences

The whole question is, of course, insane. There is no justification, mitigating factor or excuse for rape. Any that are put up are simply an indication of either overt or hidden misogyny. This crap about "Oh she was dressed like a slut so what did she expect" is simply that: crap. Nobody deserves to be attacked, raped, violated and after all if there were no rapists in the world there would be no rape. It's a sick crime and one of the most far-ranging, as a woman's life can be forever destroyed because one man (I use the term loosely) can't keep it in his pants or go jack off like anyone else. What the hell does anyone think gives them the right to force themselves on another, unwilling partner?

I'll tell you one thing: old testament as it may be, if they instigated castration as a default punishment for rape there'd be a lot less of it. We men love our dicks as we can only love ourselves.

If you force yourself on someone sexually, its rape, and its your fault.

I blame Obama.

The only argument I'd make it FOR being the 'victims' fault would be in SOME cases of statutory rape AND if ya wanna get technical, a person has to actually consent (if i am believing correctly, please correct me if i am mistaken). So by technical terms, if two people go home from the bar together and get it on, by the woman doesnt explicitly say that she wants sex, i think that's rape (absurd for the most part, i know). as fr alcohol in general, if you are sober enough to remember it happening then i think you were sober enough to say no. i also dont buy the "too scared to say no' argument.

i think we all hear the word rape and picture a guy dragging a girl into an alley or something brutal but i think by legal terms it encompasses much more

I think the ppl who voted Yes are...

Slow Groove (as a joke)
Dr Rez (as a joke)
216 (for real)
?
?

I'm one of them, and I already explained why. I don't want to be a question mark.

Typed a long post, cba.

EDIT - The drinking thing is b/s too (not you). How do you know if someone is drunk?

Well, I still disagree with you. If you say no, then it's no. Him being drunk does not give him the rights to do what he wants to your body. If you hit someone while drunk driving, you may have done something you wouldn't do while sober, but it's not like it's gonna get you any slack! We hold people accountable, even if they're drunk.

But, considering the situation, I would understand it if you didn't feel like ruining his life over it by reporting it to the police.

I also feel like it was my fault. I shouldn't have put either of us in that situation by going home with a drunk guy in the first place. I'm know he feels bad about it anyway, and I feel bad that he feels bad about it.

Guilt is what I feel; it's a simple as that. I'm sure there are other women who could identify with me on this.

When I phrased the question for the thread, what I wanted to ask was really whether or not we can hold rape victims accountable for the crime done against them. The psychology of guilt for the victim didn't really enter into it, but it's an interesting aspect or point of view and one I haven't really got much experience with or considered at all, but I am aware that guilt is a common feeling for rape victims. I imagine many things will factor into it.

You probably feel that you put yourself in that situation and perhaps you feel you could've done more to prevent it. Maybe you feel guilty for not doing much about it. But what I see is simply someone committing a crime against you. It doesn't matter if you made it simple for him to commit that crime. Committing the crime is illegal and we all have a personal responsibility not to commit crimes. You can tempt someone all you like, dress however you like, be as drunk as you like. He still has to take personal responsibility for the crimes he commits. So don't carry other peoples responsibility for them - especially not when they've victimized you! You should not feel guilty.


By the way, Self-blame (being common in victims) is a topic on Wikipedia's article on Effects and aftermath of rape. You should read it!

Thanks for all the advice and support on the matter tore, but regardless of the law, I feel more bad for that guy than I could ever feel for me. I don't feel "victimized." I feel accountable for my actions and I'm taking responsibility for a situation in which I was clearly more coherent.

Sorry for not speaking directly to your question.

You've touched on something here that I'd tried to speak about earlier in the thread: If a drunken woman says "yes", the fact that she's drunk may invalidate her consent, however, a drunken man is guilty regardless.

Clearly this is not an equal standard, and I am interested in hearing how we justify it.

EDIT: I apologise if I seem insensitive to your posts, Misspoptart. That's not my intent. If you'd rather I not start this discussion, I'll gladly and respectfully remove my post. Or alternatively, someone has permission to remove it for me if I have gone to work.

Yup, definitely interested in that topic, if people are ok with that line of discussion anyway.

:laughing:

It's bollocks.

If a drunk man is responsible for his actions then so should the rape victim be (if they've actually consented but were pissed as a fart but this is difficult to prove.) And how do you determine 'drunk'? Is 3 pints drunk? 4, 5, 6 etc. And drink effects people in different ways. There's just no way you can be consistent with this.

The whole thing is a massive grey area though and you're essentially trying to prove one person's word against another's and in what is predominantly a crime with no witnesses other than those involved there will always be miscarriages of justice.

Ultimately, if you're a man and you sleep with a woman who's been drinking and you don't know her, you're a stupid cunt even if she's consented. You know what the law is like and if you don't want to be charged with rape, you take the necessary precautions to ensure that doesn't happen. It's shit but that's how it is.

The 6 people who voted yes in the poll worry me. Stay away from my future daughters!

The 6 people who voted "yes" wanted attention. Its a common symptom this close to this softball of a soapbox.

You might want to read Misspoptarts posts on why she did before you make blanket statements like that.

Is that going to be as fun?

Edit: So I read it, and while I disagree with her, I'll say 1 vote wasn't to be a troll-grinning jackass. Drunk isn't an excuse. Normally a nice guy isn't an excuse. He didn't mean it doesn't fly. Forget about women for a few seconds and let's discuss this as men. Do you (general you) have a shred of honor? Can you see where the night is going and tell yourself that you don't want to be that person? Can you add up what this action means for her?

Poptart has a right to her opinion, but sexual intercourse is a two-way street. If she let it get out of hand, then so did he. He's an adult and should act like it. An "oh come on" defense is laughable and if he said it about anything else to a room of men they'd look at him like he was being ridiculous. You're not a 5-year old, stop conducting business like you're a 5-year old. Men, in general, need to grow the **** up and act like men. Rape is the action of the morally bankrupt, criminals, and children who don't know any better (and are therefore classified as children and told what to do).

Men ought to know better. And honest, so should poptart.

http://www.upworthy.com/3-photos-tha...-defense?c=bl3

Agreed :laughing:

An anonymous poll is a brilliant way to win attention.

Hm, did I just hear something? Weird...

They draw attn to themselves if you read the thread from start 'til now so you'll know who to keep away from any orifices. :laughing:
There are a couple who are merely kidding, tho.

I've not voted at all.

^Not enough life experience, son. :p