How does feeding smoke into others' lungs take years of your life?

Seriously though, you're mixing up two different arguments. The issue here is public smoking, not just smoking in general. As far as I can tell, nobody is arguing that nobody should be allowed to smoke, period. Sure, some of you think smoking is stupid, and it probably is, but that's up to smokers to decide.

And then there's two arguments against public smoking. There's the "second hand smoke takes years off innocent peoples' lives," which I have a very hard time accepting. It's not like every time you inhale second hand smoke you lose three months, you either inhale so much of it you get some sort of lung problem that kills you, which seems very unlikely, or you don't. You don't die at 60 of a heart attack and say, oh well, he inhaled a lot of second hand smoke that's why he died 20 years early.

The second argument seems to be, "smoke is annoying, it smells bad." In restaurants, okay, fair enough, I can accept that. I still think that if the restaurant has outdoor seating it should be okay. For bars or poolhalls on the other hand, fuck you. That's just part of going to a bar. The vast majority of people who go to bars go there to smoke and get shitfaced and just because you only go there to get drunk and not to smoke doesn't mean you somehow have the authority to impose your will upon others.

That's all I have to say about this matter, feel free to continue making the same arguments over and over.

Or your ageing process is accelerated by the effects of the bountiful free radicals contained in second-hand smoke, you wrinkle prematurely and you experience worsening health earlier in life due to the generally enhanced effect of time on your body. Since when did smoking only cause problems in the lungs? Overeating doesn't just cause mouth problems.

Alright, I'll admit you seem to know what you're talking about better than I do.

But I still demand conclusive evidence that being exposed to the smoke levels in a restaurant two or three times a month would have any sort of noticeable effect. As for bars, I say you accept whatever risk second hand smoke may pose when you go in there. Chances are you're lowering your life expectancy much more by drinking and driving home than you are by smoking, let alone inhaling second hand smoke, anyway.

I obviously meant its harmfull to the person taking in the second hand smoke.

I know. That's why I began my next statement with "seriously though."

That implies I wasn't being serious before.

Who do you want to accumulate this evidence and who exactly would pay them to gather it? As far as I know there have been a number of studies which have shown a decent correlation between smoke inhalation and cancer, early death and all that. These always get pushed aside by tobacco-industry funded research which shows there to be no correlation. I think there'll be a lot less research done into the effects of first and second hand smoke in the future because it's hardly a lucrative business for the unbiased researcher... plus they know their work is going to be swept under the carpet.

Being exposed to any fumes that are toxic and contain carconegic and ionising components is going to have some kind of effect. You're right in the use of the word 'noticeable', because I think it's true that the majority of non-smokers who die of smoke-enhanced diseases probably don't die purely as a result of passive smoke inhilation.

In most cases it's a cumulative effect, carcinogens in car fumes and fried food doing giving similar free-radical ageing effects and other lifestyle choices all working for or against the health of the person.

At the same time, although typically there would have to be several mutations in the proto-oncogenes or tumor-suppressor genes for carcigonesis* to get started, in theory just one mutation, cause by just one brief contact with a carcinogen could be enough to set off cancer. Potentially, the next time you breathe in smoke that very breath could be the one which gives you a cancer.

The truth is probably somewhere between the standard smoker's denial and the standard non-smoker-health-freak's paranoia... i.e. second-hand smoke can lead to your death but its rare esp. compared to the number of people exposed. I personally think that although first-hand smoke is a big killer (and ager), second-hand smoke is still a health and aesthetic threat but it ranks pretty low on my list of things to avoid.

*Cancer-cell generation.
You're also massively increasing your chances of being arrested for drunk-driving!

I'm a heavy smoker so I smoke whenever, wherever I can. Of course, I'm not gonna blow smoke in babies faces or anything. At work last night a coworker brought her baby to work and I was sure to stand in the back room and smoke while she was there. I was considerate.

I smoke and I am not the slightest bit concerned about anyone next to me inhaling it, if I want to spend $9.00 a pack for some cigarettes I will enjoy one whenever the f*ck I feel like it.

Yes, I'm an ass hole like that

^See, I quite like that attitude. Smoking clearly damages your health and annoys other people and can damage their health too. In my mind, that doesn't mean that people who want to smoke should stop or that they even have to be considerate of non-smokers... it just means they shouldn't be in denial about the damage they are doing to themselves and the irritation they are causing others.

I'm not in denial about it at all, it just doesn't absorb much of my time or worry.

If you don't like the smell simply f*ck off and go sit somewhere else because I will not put it out or move simply because it is irritating someone, especially in an establishment that it is permitted. I got into a argument with a fellow at a casino one day because he seemed to thing his rights as a non-smoker trumped my rights as a smoker, I did not butt out and he called me an ignorant ass hole and he got up and went to another machine. I then played his machine and won $100.00, I walked around until I found him just to tell him that I won it :D

I don`t own a car , you don`t see me going around moaning at people to walk or use public transport because it pollutes the atmosphere.

What I meant was that I appreciate it much more when smokers are like you and are comfortable with the realities of what their doing. Appreciating the realities, the negatives and positives of smoking, but not dwelling upon the negatives (I assume this broadly sums up your thoughts, MJ) gets a lot more of my respect than completely refusing to acknowledge the negatives.

I picked "Yea" by accident, people smoking outside means I smell good in the pub, and not like a ten deck of mayfair.

Where I (and lots of other people) come from, a car is essential for every day errands and tasks. What purpose does smoking fulfill again?

Smoking in any restaurants is illegal in my state now, so it's not really a factor. I'm against it, though.

Its just so nice to go home at night and not stink like old stale smoke and the hangovers seem less harsh

Move to a house closer to your errands and tasks then

Stress relief

Tell me you don't smoke?

Well, seeing as I'm 17 that may be a problem. :usehead:

Plus, not everything is localized to a particular place where I come from. If you don't live in the city, it's spread out a good deal.

Smoking in most public places has become banned here, which I think is a good idea. I don't have a problem with people who choose to smoke but people who choose not to smoke shouldn't have to put up with having their lungs polluted with unwanted chemicals. It is very unhealthy, and second hand smoke can do terrible things for your lungs. It's fine to say "if they don't want to breathe it in they should go somewhere else" but 1) Why should somebody have to move for a smoker and 2) Sometimes there is nowhere else to move to and you can't escape it.

It also irks me how smokers get smoke breaks in many workplaces but non-smokers don't.

In bars sure, but for restaurants smoking sections or outdoor sections should be required, except maybe diners, they often have funs running and it's not that much of a bother.

I love it when the funs are running.

I come from an entire family of smokers..... And I can count out of the 10 or 15 really close friends only 1 doesnt smoke. With that said I feel like I know where they are coming from.

I started smoking myself when I turned 19.... I use to get drunk and found smoking comforting for when I was a drunk and bored. It turned into a pack a day for about 6months. Then I got the worse sinus infection I have ever gotten in my entire life that spread into my lungs to make pneumonia felt like I had one lung that was the size of cellphone, I quit smoking as I lay in the parklot of my work not able to make it to my car. Took me about 2 weeks to just be able to do normal things and about 1 month or more to get back to normal.

I havent had anything like it since... I have had some sinus problems but nothing to it *Knocks on wood* I cant be 100% sure it was the cigerettes, but thats all it took.

Now.... I think every person should have their own right to do whatever they want to themselves. But I can tell when I been hanging out with smokers. Its in my cloths its in my hair, it changes the taste of my food. If I party with my friends I sometimes wake up blowing my nose and smoke filled snot comes out. **** that.

Now with that said.... I realized a long time ago, if i dont allow smoking a decent spot at my house my friend and family dont come over, because they cant smoke comfortable. Which is some bull****, that it controls them that much. They need to make pot legal and people would quit smoking so many damn cigs.

I dont have a point I guess.... Besides I like smokers... but dont like their smoke. Smoking should be done around people that dont mind being around it. Which means other smokers, not me.

There is a huge amount of other options to getting stress relief, however for most of us there is not a lot of options when it comes to transportation.

Cars, while fumes are harmful, are pretty much a necessity for many adults in modern society because of how our lives and our world is organised. A car has always been an absolute necessity for me in maintaining my job and errands, as in all of the countries I've lived public transport has been pretty much non-existent and the suburban sprawl means you can't really not drive unless you want to take hours and hours to do something simple like go to the shops or post a letter.

Plus, car fumes are not really a major problem if you are sitting in an enclosed indoor space where second hand smoke may be a big problem for non-smokers.

Smoking is barely a necessity in my society at least compared to cars... it is true that physiological addiction can be used as an argument but the only thing stopping smoking will do to you is probably make you live longer.

Yeah but i'd get fired if I did that.

I never smoke indoors either.

Agreed! Even in the short term it sucks. Headache, scratchy throat.. and then also smelling horrible.

I can't wait for the day drinking alcohol becomes as socially unacceptable as smoking.

No more drunks shouting , causing trouble , pissing & throwing up everywhere. Police can actually work on proper crimes.

cigarettes are one of the only things that are legal to sell which are guaranteed to harm you when used as intended.

i say ban 'em entirely. the addiction is mostly mental, they'll get over it.

i smoked for 10 years. then i wised up and got over it.
now, 2 years later, i'm disgusted by the idea.

a friendly note to all smokers: you smell like ass.

the more we try to hide our death (sex?) drive the uglier it'll get. i think smokers are a nice reminder that on some level we're all self-destructive.

I'm a smoker and i actually like the fact that smoking has been banned in bars and restaurants here, it's not really fair on non-smokers. Smoking areas have become the best part of bars and clubs here in my opinion. Plus you can actually talk to people without having loud music pumped in your ear and enjoy a cig at the same time. And i've got with 3 girlfriends thanks to smoking areas :)

^ Same here.

I smoke and I support the indoor smoking ban. It's easy enough for me to wait until I'm out-doors to light up. I do enjoy smoking in bars though, but if it was banned I wouldn't mind as long as the smoking area wasn't a dejected, depressing, shoe-box of a room like you see in airports.

I think it's great that smoking is banned in public in New Zealand. It's nice to go to a pub and choose whether you want to enhale smoke or not. I am a dirty occassional smoker but normally never do, so it's nice to not have the influence in my face all the time.

I never really saw the appeal of 'occasional smoking.' Seriously, what does it do for you? Most people I know either smoke or don't, I find it odd when I meet someone who smokes only occasionally. (I'm talking about cigarettes here... other drugs are a different matter).

I never would have thought that this would be the case but i actually agree about smoking areas outside now. Often i go out there, get talking to people and never go back inside.

I think the smoking ban is generally a good idea but i think its a bit too definite. Not every pub has the facility to have a smoking and non smoking area but plenty of pubs here have two completely seperate rooms where if they were allowed the option, they could easily have a smoking side to the place where it would be completely seperate from the non smoking side. However this is not an option. I hated the ban at first as a smoker but i dont mind slipping out every now and then. Even so, i know plenty of non smokers who have hated losing their friends every 20 minutes or for the majority of their night to a smoking ban.

I dont mind non smokers who don't want to be around it in pubs and bars where they feel that because of the design or size of the place, they cant go in and feel they have a choice whether to be around it or not. But to any non smokers who used to go into a bar where its was just as easy to keep away from the smoke but choose to go and sit next to someone smoking and then complain about it or ask them to put it out, you can take your opinions and go fuck right off.

I am not sure if this has already been posted here.... but no smokers find this alarming?
Smoking Carpet Glue

I mean... WTF. Why did the government insist they add more bad **** to cigarettes. I just looked at my brothers cigs and he says has noticed a coppery taste with his cigs, and they have the FSC letters on the box.

i never smoked to the point where i was addicted to cigarettes...but i did smoke enough at one point to see the fun and appeal in socially smoking. it really is a great way to start a conversation if you have to go to a smoking area. or if you are in a bar that allows smoking...well, beer and cigarettes just seem to go together. it helps me pace my drinking...if i don't pay attention then i end up blacking out and that never produces good results.

edit: if this sounds like a big excuse to keep smoking, it isn't. it is bad and i hope to even end my social smoking someday. but for now i like it.

Social smoking is how i started. Social smoking is how pretty much everyone starts.

I used to smoke but quit many years ago. I used to buy tobacco pouches and roll my own. Even though it's been quite a few years since I quit, I still miss it on occasion .. (coffee, piece of chocolate, hand rolled cigarette .. a pleasure I'll always miss :()

I agree with this. Despite it sounding like a contradiction, the real attraction of smoking is the addiction. It's satisying the hunger for a cigarette comparable to like one might satisfy hunger for food with a meal. If you haven't developed a craving and still smoke, then what you're doing is really quite stupid.

Since I quit, I've been largely against cigarettes. From a selfish point of view, the most exposure to them can do to me now is make me miss them. ;)

Yeah that's pretty much how i started. I used to smoke only on nights out because most of my friends did but pretty soon i started smoking all the time. I'm not a heavy smoker but sometimes i wish i could just go back to social smoking.

It's how I started. From 14 years old onwards I smoked socially off and on and by the time I reached 19 I started buying my own packets occassionally. Now I'm a non-smoker. I didn't feel it that difficult to stop, it was a natural process, it didn't give me enjoyment like before.