The Argument thread. (country, Europe, Russian, quote, history)

[jibber]

Originally Posted by franscar

I am not touching that with a ten foot pole though. Makes us look like a right bunch of fúcks.

haha, it very much does, and yet it's a fun topic because no matter much you discuss it, there's always another part to it that hasn't been taken into account. To play devil's advocate, the british were under immense pressure financially and politically. They were trying to hold together an empire that had no possible way of remaining intact. Their motives for acting the way they did are undeniable, and yet I can't imagine anyone with any sort of social conscience condoning their actions.

and madeinNY, if you want a really good book that explains the situation in great detail, and is also a really good read, I'd suggest Exodus by Leon Uris. Probably one of my favorite books of all time.

[madeinNY]

Thanks franscar :]

Well...with that entry in mind...I just have to say, in the past, the British have been so damn greedy. And they have no right ****ing around in the middle east...let them have some terratory...can't have it all, y'know.

EDIT: Jib, I'll look up on that book.

[jibber]

Originally Posted by franscar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...e_of_Palestine

I've only skimmed this wikipedia entry, but it all seems fairly ok to me.

that entry is actually pretty good, but it doesnt touch on any of the history of the area before the mandate was created. None of the jewish oppression in eatern europe (specifically in russia) is touched on, which was the entire driving force behind the whole zionist movement.

[franscar]

Originally Posted by jibber

haha, it very much does, and yet it's a fun topic because no matter much you discuss it, there's always another part to it that hasn't been taken into account. To play devil's advocate, the british were under immense pressure financially and politically. They were trying to hold together an empire that had no possible way of remaining intact. Their motives for acting the way they did are undeniable, and yet I can't imagine anyone with any sort of social conscience condoning their actions.

and madeinNY, if you want a really good book that explains the situation in great detail, and is also a really good read, I'd suggest Exodus by Leon Uris. Probably one of my favorite books of all time.

That seems to be the major problem with all Middle Eastern history I've ever encountered. So many conflicting agendas and conflicting opinions and interests. There's one or two people at uni with me who are writing their dissertations on the area and the sheer scale of the literature they have to wade through is amazing.

But then, I did have to choose the topic for mine that nobody has ever written a book on before. Bugger.

[franscar]

Originally Posted by jibber

that entry is actually pretty good, but it doesnt touch on any of the history of the area before the mandate was created. None of the jewish oppression in eatern europe (specifically in russia) is touched on, which was the entire driving force behind the whole zionist movement.

Poland, Russia, France, Germany, Italy, the Eastern Bloc. Take your pick really.

Judaism hasn't had a particularly easy ride.

[jibber]

Originally Posted by madeinNY

Thanks franscar :]

Well...with that entry in mind...I just have to say, in the past, the British have been so damn greedy. And they have no right ****ing around in the middle east...let them have some terratory...can't have it all, y'know.

EDIT: Jib, I'll look up on that book.

HUGE oversimplification there. The british were not f*cking around in the middle east as you so eloquently put it at that time in history. The palestinians pressured the british to outlaw mass immigration by the jews to palestine by holding their oil reserves over their head. Even THAT explanation is oversimplified way too much. Unless I type out a 10 page essay, I can't even beging to relay all the history and complexities needed to even have the most basic understanding of the situation.

[madeinNY]

Well when I get that book you were saying about I can elaborate more.

[jibber]

Originally Posted by franscar

Poland, Russia, France, Germany, Italy, the Eastern Bloc. Take your pick really.

Judaism hasn't had a particularly easy ride.

the eastern bloc for sure, but russia was by far the most oppressive country out of all of them. The russian Pale was basically one big ghetto, what the warsaw ghetto in WWII was modeled after. pograms were legalized in many different times in russian history, and even the geography of the nation attributed to the situation for jews being worse in russia. By being such an isolated country from the rest of western europe, it was easy for the royal family to let the situation get far more escalated than in any other place in europe with little to no objection. Not that there would have been much objection anyways, at that time, anti-semitism was very popular.

[franscar]

Originally Posted by jibber

the eastern bloc for sure, but russia was by far the most oppressive country out of all of them. The russian Pale was basically one big ghetto, what the warsaw ghetto in WWII was modeled after. pograms were legalized in many different times in russian history, and even the geography of the nation attributed to the situation for jews being worse in russia. By being such an isolated country from the rest of western europe, it was easy for the royal family to let the situation get far more escalated than in any other place in europe with little to no objection. Not that there would have been much objection anyways, at that time, anti-semitism was very popular.

Don't forget the impact that a few anti-semite tramps in lower class Vienna had on a young aspiring architect by the name of Adolf.

[jibber]

Originally Posted by franscar

Don't forget the impact that a few anti-semite tramps in lower class Vienna had on a young aspiring architect by the name of Adolf.

haha, well yeah, but the whole zionist movement started LONG before hitler was ever in power, late 1800s to early 1900's.