The Argument thread. (country, dance, American, Religious, quote)

[Shooting Star]

Originally Posted by jibber

haha, well yeah, but the whole zionist movement started LONG before hitler was ever in power, late 1800s to early 1900's.

Yeah, the desire for it was always there, just with increasing anti-semitism and then the holocaust it seemed more necessary for Jewish people to have their own homeland.

[jibber]

Originally Posted by franscar

That seems to be the major problem with all Middle Eastern history I've ever encountered. So many conflicting agendas and conflicting opinions and interests. There's one or two people at uni with me who are writing their dissertations on the area and the sheer scale of the literature they have to wade through is amazing.

But then, I did have to choose the topic for mine that nobody has ever written a book on before. Bugger.

plus, the british tried to cater to boths sides. making conflicting promises to each side, which of course would be impossible to keep. In the end, the british sunk themselves by trying to appease both sides, resulting in broken promises on both sides, and ultimately, both sides being mighty pissed off.

[franscar]

Originally Posted by jibber

haha, well yeah, but the whole zionist movement started LONG before hitler was ever in power, late 1800s to early 1900's.

It's pretty much agreed that Hitler picked up the anti-jewish sentiments around that time. But yeah, the Jews had been pushed around for nigh on a thousand years before then, King Edward had the Jewish contingent of England expelled from the country as far back as 1290 for becoming merchants and not converting to Catholicism.

Religion. Wow.

[adidasss]

the jews pushed the arabs out of their own land.....can't blame them for being just slightly pissed off.....

[jibber]

Originally Posted by Shooting Star

Yeah, the desire for it was always there, just with increasing anti-semitism and then the holocaust it seemed more necessary for Jewish people to have their own homeland.

well obviously. Then came along a lovely little thing known as the balfour declaration, on which the british never followed through, screwing the jew over even more. Interestingly enough, jews already settled in palestine contributed ENORMOUSLY to the allied war effort in the middle east, and yet their victories and contributions were downplayed by the british to a disgusting extent. On the flip side, arabs who cooporated with hitler at first and then switched sides once they realized the tide was turning were rewarded by the british with their own nations (Iraq) and a seat in the newly formed united nations. The Yishuv (the jewish population in palestine) got nothing more than thousands of jewish refugees interned in camps and prevented from entering palestine.

[adidasss]

Originally Posted by jibber

well obviously. Then came along a lovely little thing known as the balfour declaration, on which the british never followed through, screwing the jew over even more. Interestingly enough, jews already settled in palestine contributed ENORMOUSLY to the allied war effort in the middle east, and yet their victories and contributions were downplayed by the british to a disgusting extent. On the flip side, arabs who cooporated with hitler at first and then switched sides once they realized the tide was turning were rewarded by the british with their own nations (Iraq) and a seat in the newly formed united nations. The Yishuv (the jewish population in palestine) got nothing more than thousands of jewish refugees interned in camps and prevented from entering palestine.

just out of curiousity, are you jewish?

[jibber]

Originally Posted by adidasss

the jews pushed the arabs out of their own land.....can't blame them for being just slightly pissed off.....

actually, it's much more complicated than that. The first palestinian settlers bought land from the arabs at rediculously high prices, land that was originally barren swamps, and the jews turned them into kibbutz and farmlands. After the war, once the british pulled out of palestine, the arabs and jews of course started a war of their own once th Yishuv declared statehood. The arabs that were "forced out of their homes" were simply refugees who lost their homes after they STARTED attacks on jewish settlements.

[jibber]

Originally Posted by adidasss

just out of curiousity, are you jewish?

no, but I did grow up in the middle east, and so middle eastern politics have always interested me. Even when I was little, like 10 or 11, I would read up on anything I could understand about the history of the area.

[jibber]

but of course, all the information i've been putting out is all from the time immediately after the second world war. The situation has changed dramatically since then, and both sides have commited utter atrocities to the other.

[franscar]

Originally Posted by jibber

and both sides have commited utter atrocities to the other.

And both sides will always blame the other and both sides will never admit they've acted like bastards and both sides will never accept a peace which involves making sacrifices or admitting to having been bastards.

And so it goes on. And on. And on.