jwb

All you are going to do is keep playing wack a mole with these people. It's not about the individual. A person like Tate exists because of the niche he found and exploited. He wasn't the first and won't be the last, and banning someone like let's say Alex Jones has done absolutely zero to get people to stop believing in the kinds of conspiracy theories he pushes. So I do think you're quite overstating how effective this method is at actually battling harmful ideas. Not to say arguing with them is necessarily going to yield better results, but at least it would yield better content.

jwb

That's a cop out that is pretty emblematic of what I mean. If instead of getting into Jordan Peterson and self help let's say I just decided to sit around and vote for Bernie and hope eventually someday people will have free healthcare. That feels like a completely powerless and hopeless message to give. On an individual level even relatively bland advice like clean your room is infinitely more useful than believing in all the correct policies.

TheBig3

Some nameless conservative guy in an interview once said "the Left is incapable of talking about any relationship other than government." which was his way of saying church, family, yada yada. But it's also true of things like this. People should be free to fly their freak flag, and also the government should help. Those are the two things they stand for. The Left abandoned a lot of the staples of society like, neighbors and communities because of course, those enforce norms, and we don't like norms because they get exclusionary.

When Peterson talks about psychology and the adjacent topics, he's not bad. Just basic. When he talks about politics it's not different than Sean Penn. You're a celebrity for non-political reasons, and now you're going to talk about politics. There doesn't need to be a Left-version of the kind of folks who help young men (which is needed, by the way) because helping young men become Men and not raging incels shouldn't be political. The real question is, why do all these people speaking to young men come up with a Right-wing bent? The only person I know who is out there, attempting to help people in this same vein is Ryan Holiday, though he is completely focused on the Stoics, and isn't targeting young males specifically.

But he's the only one who isn't trying to sell a cult of personality on the side. As for Andrew Tate, I have nothing positive to say.

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I've moved to a new address

Frownland

Ja the left really needs to step it up and provide the validation of misogyny that the bros desire.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

jwb

No that would be dumb. Instead, when someone asks why guys like Tate and Peterson are having such success giving self help messages to young men we'll scratch our heads and give some vague bull**** about wealth inequality.

Like I said you don't have to give the same exact kind of advice but if you are just going to write the actual questions off rather than try to come up with your own answer then don't be surprised when that field is dominated by the opposition.

Frownland

Nah you pretty much have to give the same advice to corner the same market because it's easier to let pre-established doctrines of misogyny think for you than to be a vague and overcomplicated nerd. That's why this brand of grifter is so consistent in terms of ideology.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

jwb

I mean I'm not gonna lie I do think it's going to be easier to grift than to offer any actual useful self help advice the same way it's going to be easier to find some idiot YouTuber to teach you the ways of communism rather than cracking open an actual book. And the more digestible video is also more likely to leave you with over simplified misconceptions. But that's not exactly a reason to abandon the project completely. So while I do think you have a point there I also believe that the left just tends to shy away from placing much emphasis on personal responsibility because they think it gives political fuel to the right. But that kind of approach is literally the only way to give any useful self help advice.

Frownland

It's probably more because self help is a better vessel for right wing ideas since it focuses on the individual and encourages people to ignore structural factors influencing their lives rather than the left "avoiding" grifting people. The existence of the market doesn't necessitate pursuing it either, since to be similarly effective you're basically asking the left to operate like the right.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

SGR

Definitely some truth in that.

Left: Tendency to seek external solutions to problems
Right: Tendency to seek internal solutions to problems

I suppose the other thing with the self-help manosphere stuff is that, given the platforms these messages are spread on (Youtube, TikTok, etc.), it's all driven by attention and clicks. So in general, the cigar smoking ex-kickboxer who thinks women should be on leashes is going to be more successful than someone giving valuable, but more tame advice and perspective.

jwb

to me it's not just the existence of a market, that market exists as a reflection of real needs and problems that otherwise go unaddressed. I'm not saying the left necessarily needs to try to corner the market if they are just inherently uninterested in doing so but then the lamentations of how young men gravitate to self help types on the other side seems all the more impotent.