Joe Biden Love Thread

The Batlord · 09-06-2022, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

I'm using the worker/owner distinction correctly to identify them as capitalists, yes. That doesn't mean I agree that the worker/owner distinction is a good replacement for income based class distinctions. In fact it was a demonstration for why I don't.

Bro I'm complimenting your correct application of Marxist analysis. You don't have to get defensive.

~~jwb~~ · 09-06-2022, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

merchants were kinda the equivalent of what we're talking about here in Marx day, and from what I understand, they're not considered properly part of the bourgeois

they're the "small bourgeois" who eventually lose out to the proper bourgeois

The small merchants you are referring to would also fall on the owner side of the worker/owner distinction. The particular flavor of "bourgeois" you decide to label them doesn't seem pertinent to that distinction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

it's not the money Im drawing attention to, it's that shopkeepers and artisans don't make money primarily off of their capital

that's reserved for landlords, shareholders, entrepreneurship

They make their money through owning a business in which they are the sole shareholder. That's called being an owner.

You can say but they put in work to make it successful but that's fundamentally different from doing so for a wage for a business that you don't own.

An professional athlete who makes all their money from the league once again is in fact more a member of the proletariat than said shop owner.

~~jwb~~ · 09-06-2022, 01:25 PM

Maybe you're suggesting the owner/ worker distinction isn't good enough and needs a third category. Because whatever you want to say about a self employed plumber, by nature of going into business for himself he isn't being an exploited by a capitalist who is extracting surplus value from his labor. Which i think is like the whole source of the class antagonism between these two groups in the first place, if you are going by a Marxist lens.

~~jwb~~ · 09-06-2022, 01:31 PM

What? Lol. Tons of capitalists have to do **** like that. You are reaching my friend.

~~jwb~~ · 09-06-2022, 05:03 PM

You seem confused. You can take a loan to start a company and that doesn't make you less of a capitalist. It's a particular strategy you can employ. Sure you can say that loans are exploitation if you want (I don't agree) but if they are it's not the same type of exploitation as selling your labor to a business that they extract surplus value from. That's what we are talking about with the proletariat not some business owner who took out a loan. Yes getting a car loan doesn't make you a capitalist because the loan is for a car not capital to start a business. It also doesn't make you a worker. It's completely irrelevant.

The Batlord · 09-06-2022, 05:05 PM

Jeff Bezos and Donald Trump. Famous loan non-havers.

SGR · 09-06-2022, 05:57 PM

It was just a small loan of a million dollars.

The Batlord · 09-06-2022, 06:14 PM

Not to mention junk bond shenanigans. I couldn't tell you the difference between that and a loan but either way you're not spending your own money.

TheBig3 · 09-06-2022, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

a capitalist uses their prior wealth to invest and accumulate more wealth

if I take out a loan to purchase a lawn mower for a little landscaping endeavor, I haven't become a capitalist

...what are you then?

~~jwb~~ · 09-10-2022, 07:58 PM

... i think the intuition you actually are drawing on here is that you don't think self employed plumbers are capitalist regardless of whether they take out a loan. If the person you are describing uses their own money to start their one man plumbing business you would still not call them a capitalist. The loan part is literally just a red herring to introduce an element of exploitation. Since you know they aren't actually being exploited for their labor by an employer, you are bringing up the interest they pay to a bank to make them sound more sympathetic. But that's irrelevant to their distinction as a business owner.

Also I would say yes I wouldn't be surprised if both Trump and Bezos have put some type of labor into their respective companies. I know for a fact that people like Zuckerberg and Bill gates did. That doesn't make them any less of a capitalist either.

All of these excuses you are making for the plumber can also apply to a titan of industry. The actual difference between the small business owner and the large business owner is largely how successful they have been in their ambitions.

09-06-2022, 01:25 PM	#413 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	Maybe you're suggesting the owner/ worker distinction isn't good enough and needs a third category. Because whatever you want to say about a self employed plumber, by nature of going into business for himself he isn't being an exploited by a capitalist who is extracting surplus value from his labor. Which i think is like the whole source of the class antagonism between these two groups in the first place, if you are going by a Marxist lens.

09-06-2022, 01:31 PM	#414 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	What? Lol. Tons of capitalists have to do **** like that. You are reaching my friend.

09-06-2022, 05:03 PM	#415 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	You seem confused. You can take a loan to start a company and that doesn't make you less of a capitalist. It's a particular strategy you can employ. Sure you can say that loans are exploitation if you want (I don't agree) but if they are it's not the same type of exploitation as selling your labor to a business that they extract surplus value from. That's what we are talking about with the proletariat not some business owner who took out a loan. Yes getting a car loan doesn't make you a capitalist because the loan is for a car not capital to start a business. It also doesn't make you a worker. It's completely irrelevant.

09-06-2022, 05:57 PM	#417 (permalink)
SGR No Ice In My Bourbon Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: /dev/null Posts: 4,326	It was just a small loan of a million dollars.

09-10-2022, 07:58 PM	#420 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	... i think the intuition you actually are drawing on here is that you don't think self employed plumbers are capitalist regardless of whether they take out a loan. If the person you are describing uses their own money to start their one man plumbing business you would still not call them a capitalist. The loan part is literally just a red herring to introduce an element of exploitation. Since you know they aren't actually being exploited for their labor by an employer, you are bringing up the interest they pay to a bank to make them sound more sympathetic. But that's irrelevant to their distinction as a business owner. Also I would say yes I wouldn't be surprised if both Trump and Bezos have put some type of labor into their respective companies. I know for a fact that people like Zuckerberg and Bill gates did. That doesn't make them any less of a capitalist either. All of these excuses you are making for the plumber can also apply to a titan of industry. The actual difference between the small business owner and the large business owner is largely how successful they have been in their ambitions.