Should Felons be allowed to own guns?

~~jwb~~ · 08-23-2020, 10:16 AM

I assume everyone here agrees that felons should be allowed to vote, but I was curious what your thoughts are on gun rights for felons?

I honestly believe if we could get rid of the 2nd amendment that'd be for the best but since we are where we are as a country then if it's a right to have a gun then felons skills have that right. Getting out of jail without your full basic rights restored seems like bull**** to me.

People will say it's dangerous but guess what... The same arguments that they make about legal gun owners not committing crime with their guns actually applies to felons if they have a legal gun. You don't use a legal gun in a gang killing etc because it will be traced. If they're going to go back to shooting people they will do it the illegal way anyway. All that stopping them from getting a legal gun does is strip them of their right to protecr themselves in a country that is filled with people who own guns.

What are your thoughts?

**Frownland** · 08-23-2020, 10:19 AM

They should be granted the same rights as any other citizen in all senses, even if that includes the right to impractical modes of self defense.

SGR · 08-23-2020, 10:22 AM

Yup, I'm all for felons having their rights to bear firearms.

OccultHawk · 08-23-2020, 10:38 AM

They should have at least the same access to weaponry as the government up to and including WMD.

~~jwb~~ · 08-23-2020, 10:41 AM

Damn was hoping for some pushback. Fail thread. Unless maybe elph??

**Marie Monday** · 08-23-2020, 11:26 AM

No opposition from me either. I'm against gun ownership, but giving felons less civil rights than other people is unethical and just causes more problems in society

Lisnaholic · 08-23-2020, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

Damn was hoping for some pushback. Fail thread. Unless maybe elph??

Well, I'd def push back on the idea that felons should be allowed access to guns, even if it means going against two of my fave mods:-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

They should be granted the same rights as any other citizen in all senses, even if that includes the right to impractical modes of self defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marie Monday

No opposition from me either. I'm against gun ownership, but giving felons less civil rights than other people is unethical and just causes more problems in society

My Case: it's not to be vindictive about people who have paid their debt to society, it's about the notion that a person has shown themselves capable of a felony.
Definition, my bold:

Quote:

noun
a crime, typically one involving violence, regarded as more serious than a misdemeanor, and usually punishable by imprisonment for more than one year or by death.

Plenty of people are released from prison with almost full rights, but plus some restrictions. I suspect that some aren't allowed passports; someone who constructed a bomb is prob barred from working in the chemicals industry. Pedafiles aren't allowed near schools and have to register address changes, some people have long-term restraining orders, etc, etc.

I'm in favour of giving felons a fair second chance, but losing the right to bear arms is not much of an impedement to leading a normal life imo.

~~jwb~~ · 08-23-2020, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

Well, I'd def push back on the idea that felons should be allowed access to guns, even if it means going against two of my fave mods:-

My Case: it's not to be vindictive about people who have paid their debt to society, it's about the notion that a person has shown themselves capable of a felony.
Definition, my bold:

So fundamentally you don't believe in the possibility of rehabilitation.

Quote:

Plenty of people are released from prison with almost full rights, but plus some restrictions. I suspect that some aren't allowed passports; someone who constructed a bomb is prob barred from working in the chemicals industry. Pedafiles aren't allowed near schools and have to register address changes, some people have long-term restraining orders, etc, etc.

I'm in favour of giving felons a fair second chance, but losing the right to bear arms is not much of an impedement to leading a normal life imo.

in the case of pedophiles and schools etc there's an obvious added risk involved - to a certain extent they are dealing with psychological issues and it's best to avoid triggering a relapse into bad behavior, the same way alcoholics avoid bars.

Felons with legal guns don't pose an obvious enough risk to strip them of a basic right guaranteed in the bill of rights. For reasons I explained above, gun crimes are much more likely to be committed with illegal guns because legal ones can be traced through ballistic forensics. And only a fraction of the felons are even gun crime offenders in the first place. Out of those... The gang killings are carried out almost exclusively with illegal guns. Domestic crimes sometimes involve legal guns but that group has a really low recitivism rate.

OccultHawk · 08-23-2020, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

Well, I'd def push back on the idea that felons should be allowed access to guns, even if it means going against two of my fave mods:-

My Case: it's not to be vindictive about people who have paid their debt to society, it's about the notion that a person has shown themselves capable of a felony.
Definition, my bold:

Plenty of people are released from prison with almost full rights, but plus some restrictions. I suspect that some aren't allowed passports; someone who constructed a bomb is prob barred from working in the chemicals industry. Pedafiles aren't allowed near schools and have to register address changes, some people have long-term restraining orders, etc, etc.

I'm in favour of giving felons a fair second chance, but losing the right to bear arms is not much of an impedement to leading a normal life imo.

I think if you had experience with released felons in the United States, like working side by side with people on work release programs, or dealing with them as parents of the children you were teaching you really wouldn’t feel like a past conviction is true indicator of future behavior or maybe not even past behavior compared to the general public. The American penal system is wildly unfair and criminalizes both pigmentation and poverty. Leaving them in a permanent disenfranchised second class status is usually what causes people to lash out. I would support intentionally arming them over denying them the right to self defense. Hell, we need people who are willing to put a gun to the head of this capitalist power structure.

Quote:

Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen.

And as through your life you travel,
Yes, as through your life you roam,
You won't never see an outlaw
Drive a family from their home.

Woody Guthrie

Lisnaholic · 08-23-2020, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

We're all capable of felonies.

Yep, that's true, and yet we don't all commit one.

Quote:

Restricting the rights of felons assigns them to a lifelong second class citizenry, and recidivism is a symptom of our flawed prison system used to blame felons for being "unfixable". The biggest criticism I see against it is part of a larger discussion about how valuable gun rights are.

The bold is surely over-stating the "deprivation" of the restrictions I've mentioned: the gun thing, pedofiles kept away from kids, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

So fundamentally you don't believe in the possibility of rehabilitation.

I didn't say that at all. I believe in the possibility of rehabilitation, all I'm suggesting is that balancing out the overall safety of society, against the loss of gun rights for felons, I think it's worth doing. With many safety measures imposed by society, some freedoms are lost and innocent people are inconvenienced. In principal I subscribe to the notion that someone who has paid his debt to society is an innocent person; all that happens is that he carries around one extra inconvenience. Just like me he can't drink and drive or ride a motorbike without a helmet, it's just that when I go into the gun shop, he has to wait in the car.

Quote:

in the case of pedophiles and schools etc there's an obvious added risk involved - to a certain extent they are dealing with psychological issues and it's best to avoid triggering a relapse into bad behavior, the same way alcoholics avoid bars.

Felons with legal guns don't pose an obvious enough risk to strip them of a basic right guaranteed in the bill of rights.

Was the Bill of Rights carved in stone and handed down by God? If the times, the technology and the society of the US have changed in the last 200 years, perhaps a footnote could be added to the Bill of Rights too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

I think if you had experience with released felons in the United States, like working side by side with people on work release programs, or dealing with them as parents of the children you were teaching you really wouldn’t feel like a past conviction is true indicator of future behavior or maybe not even past behavior compared to the general public. The American penal system is wildly unfair and criminalizes both pigmentation and poverty. Leaving them in a permanent disenfranchised second class status is usually what causes people to lash out. I would support intentionally arming them over denying them the right to self defense. Hell, we need people who are willing to put a gun to the head of this capitalist power structure.

I didn't say that a past conviction is a true indicator of future behaviour. I respect your experience as you know, and am sure you're right about many or most ex-felons keeping out of trouble.

My bold bit: maybe it's a cultural thing, but again I feel that the loss of gun ownership rights is being overstated, in this case especially with the word "disenfranchised" which is normally used in connection with voting rights. Do you really become a second-class citizen in the US if you lose your gun rights?!

Nice touch with the Woody Guthrie quote, OH! Perhaps you guessed correctly that I would be reluctant to contradict him. Absolutely agree with his first verse about white-collar crime, but sadly this couplet isn't entirely true:

You won't never see an outlaw
Drive a family from their home

(* hastily checks the internet for cases of mafia protection-racketeers and drug cartels closing businesses, etc.*)

08-23-2020, 10:16 AM	#1 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	Should Felons be allowed to own guns? I assume everyone here agrees that felons should be allowed to vote, but I was curious what your thoughts are on gun rights for felons? I honestly believe if we could get rid of the 2nd amendment that'd be for the best but since we are where we are as a country then if it's a right to have a gun then felons skills have that right. Getting out of jail without your full basic rights restored seems like bull**** to me. People will say it's dangerous but guess what... The same arguments that they make about legal gun owners not committing crime with their guns actually applies to felons if they have a legal gun. You don't use a legal gun in a gang killing etc because it will be traced. If they're going to go back to shooting people they will do it the illegal way anyway. All that stopping them from getting a legal gun does is strip them of their right to protecr themselves in a country that is filled with people who own guns. What are your thoughts?

08-23-2020, 10:19 AM	#2 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	They should be granted the same rights as any other citizen in all senses, even if that includes the right to impractical modes of self defense. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

08-23-2020, 10:38 AM	#4 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,006	They should have at least the same access to weaponry as the government up to and including WMD. __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

08-23-2020, 10:22 AM	#3 (permalink)
SGR No Ice In My Bourbon Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: /dev/null Posts: 4,327	Yup, I'm all for felons having their rights to bear firearms.

08-23-2020, 10:41 AM	#5 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	Damn was hoping for some pushback. Fail thread. Unless maybe elph??