Music Banter - Should Felons be allowed to own guns?

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- - Should Felons be allowed to own guns? (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/94821-should-felons-allowed-own-guns.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic (Post 2132432)

Well, I'd def push back on the idea that felons should be allowed access to guns, even if it means going against two of my fave mods:-

My Case: it's not to be vindictive about people who have paid their debt to society, it's about the notion that a person has shown themselves capable of a felony.
Definition, my bold:

Plenty of people are released from prison with almost full rights, but plus some restrictions. I suspect that some aren't allowed passports; someone who constructed a bomb is prob barred from working in the chemicals industry. Pedafiles aren't allowed near schools and have to register address changes, some people have long-term restraining orders, etc, etc.

I'm in favour of giving felons a fair second chance, but losing the right to bear arms is not much of an impedement to leading a normal life imo.

I think if you had experience with released felons in the United States, like working side by side with people on work release programs, or dealing with them as parents of the children you were teaching you really wouldn’t feel like a past conviction is true indicator of future behavior or maybe not even past behavior compared to the general public. The American penal system is wildly unfair and criminalizes both pigmentation and poverty. Leaving them in a permanent disenfranchised second class status is usually what causes people to lash out. I would support intentionally arming them over denying them the right to self defense. Hell, we need people who are willing to put a gun to the head of this capitalist power structure.

Quote:

Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen.

And as through your life you travel,
Yes, as through your life you roam,
You won't never see an outlaw
Drive a family from their home.

Woody Guthrie

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 2132444)

OH has a gun

Damn skippy.

it is only by the power of the gun that the working class and the labouring masses can defeat the armed bourgeoisie and landlords; in this sense we may say that only with guns can the whole world be transformed

-MAO

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 2132444)

they are unrelated other than there are a whole lotta people that shouldn't have guns

OH has a gun

you didn't answer the question of which crimes make you unfit to own one and why

Or at least a single example of a crime that would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 2132448)

the absolute LARP

Ain’t nobody wanna be looking at the business end of it I’ll tell you that.

Missed this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan (Post 2132409)

Not all felons are violent criminals. They could be just like you ( ... plus a felony charge) and just want to protecr themselves with a "lefal weapon." Some commit white collar, and/or non-violent crimes. Some are not career criminals but have some isolated indecent in their past that prohibits them from legally purchasing a firearm. There are lawyers whose expertise is Restoration of Gun Rights that handle this kind of stuff all the time.

Another pertinent question: Should felons be able to own dogs to protecr themselves?

alright I didn't proofread. Nice spectrumy fixation on minor details you sperg champion. Go build a model train set.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan (Post 2132409)

Not all felons are violent criminals. They could be just like you ( ... plus a felony charge) and just want to protecr themselves with a "lefal weapon."

Lol I see you nea you racist bitch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 2132434)

We're all capable of felonies.

Yep, that's true, and yet we don't all commit one.

Quote:

Restricting the rights of felons assigns them to a lifelong second class citizenry, and recidivism is a symptom of our flawed prison system used to blame felons for being "unfixable". The biggest criticism I see against it is part of a larger discussion about how valuable gun rights are.

The bold is surely over-stating the "deprivation" of the restrictions I've mentioned: the gun thing, pedofiles kept away from kids, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2132439)

So fundamentally you don't believe in the possibility of rehabilitation.

I didn't say that at all. I believe in the possibility of rehabilitation, all I'm suggesting is that balancing out the overall safety of society, against the loss of gun rights for felons, I think it's worth doing. With many safety measures imposed by society, some freedoms are lost and innocent people are inconvenienced. In principal I subscribe to the notion that someone who has paid his debt to society is an innocent person; all that happens is that he carries around one extra inconvenience. Just like me he can't drink and drive or ride a motorbike without a helmet, it's just that when I go into the gun shop, he has to wait in the car.

Quote:

in the case of pedophiles and schools etc there's an obvious added risk involved - to a certain extent they are dealing with psychological issues and it's best to avoid triggering a relapse into bad behavior, the same way alcoholics avoid bars.

Felons with legal guns don't pose an obvious enough risk to strip them of a basic right guaranteed in the bill of rights.

Was the Bill of Rights carved in stone and handed down by God? If the times, the technology and the society of the US have changed in the last 200 years, perhaps a footnote could be added to the Bill of Rights too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk (Post 2132442)

I think if you had experience with released felons in the United States, like working side by side with people on work release programs, or dealing with them as parents of the children you were teaching you really wouldn’t feel like a past conviction is true indicator of future behavior or maybe not even past behavior compared to the general public. The American penal system is wildly unfair and criminalizes both pigmentation and poverty. Leaving them in a permanent disenfranchised second class status is usually what causes people to lash out. I would support intentionally arming them over denying them the right to self defense. Hell, we need people who are willing to put a gun to the head of this capitalist power structure.

I didn't say that a past conviction is a true indicator of future behaviour. I respect your experience as you know, and am sure you're right about many or most ex-felons keeping out of trouble.

My bold bit: maybe it's a cultural thing, but again I feel that the loss of gun ownership rights is being overstated, in this case especially with the word "disenfranchised" which is normally used in connection with voting rights. Do you really become a second-class citizen in the US if you lose your gun rights?!

Nice touch with the Woody Guthrie quote, OH! Perhaps you guessed correctly that I would be reluctant to contradict him. Absolutely agree with his first verse about white-collar crime, but sadly this couplet isn't entirely true:

You won't never see an outlaw
Drive a family from their home

(* hastily checks the internet for cases of mafia protection-racketeers and drug cartels closing businesses, etc.*)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic (Post 2132463)

Yep, that's true, and yet we don't all commit one.

Until we need to or the law decides that we have.

Quote:

Do you really become a second-class citizen in the US if you lose your gun rights?!

You become a second class citizen in any country when one or more rights are limited in comparison to the general public, so yes. The value of gun rights is another question entirely, really.

Quote:

Do you really become a second-class citizen in the US if you lose your gun rights?

I mean maybe maybe not. Having a special set of laws that inhibit your rights is pretty damn second classy but if you also had millions of dollars that would be enough to buy your way out of it.

Still it’s a part of a bigger issue. A person is out. Let them get on with their ****ing life. It shouldn’t be a question on job applications or rental terms and all that. You could accuse me of using the slippery slope fallacy but shrug i think it applies.

I’ll give an anecdotal one. I worked with a really nice guy who had served his time for murder. He grew up in Miami. Was forced into a gang. A series of events that were all very unfortunate befell on him. He killed someone but he still had a heart of gold.

I’m not really making my case here. I think I already did that. It’s just that this country is so unjust, right from birth, I don’t think having a record has much at all to do with your true disposition.