2020 US Election Thread

[Chula Vista]

Originally Posted by Frownland

1. Be excellent to each other. - CHECK
2. Protect the land and the land protects you. - CHECK
3. Liars are the worst, especially when they're lying to themselves. - CHECK
4. People should be able to opt into the systems they participate in. - needs more fleshing out to opine.
4.20. Smoke weed every day. - CHECK!!!
5. Certain forms of grassroots violence to protect all of the above is - acceptable. Street brawls are dumb and I reject violence in general. Pacifism does require force to protect peace imo. - CHECK 1, 2, 3
6. Federal and global efforts are necessary for disasters, but governments and economies should be localized. - NO. I'm sick of Utah and Wyoming having such a big say in Federal (my life) policies.
7. A reiteration of 4, but people should do whatever the **** they want without harming others. - CHECK with the caveat of also not harming the community as a whole.
8. There are no perfect answers and history should viewed as descriptive guidance as opposed to a set of prescriptive axioms. - ****ING HELL CHECK.

Cool.

[The Batlord]

On point 5 I would agree that leftists engaging in street brawls makes bad press cause liberal societies are too stupid to differentiate between leftwing and rightwing street fighters and it makea bad press for leftists while fascists are better at portraying themselves as victims, but rightwing street fighters have historically led to Bad Things and so not punching them in the face isn't a winning strategy either.

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

4. People should be able to opt into the systems they participate in. - needs more fleshing out to opine.

I'm against slavery on all levels and diffuse modes of control. General moral systems are useful for people who are criminally insane and ****, but there's an unnecessary demand to abide to certain systems like appealing to middle class values in the workplace and not being able to get on in modern society without the internet or using their roads. The grid as it exists is based on expansion and going off of it is virtually impossible. Countries who don't follow popular global models of government are ****ed with. Unnecessary gender roles, unthinking tradition, theocratic authoritarianism, change as a rule under the guise of progress, proper models of discourse... There's more to it, it's a pretty ambiguous point and is meant to work in tandem with the rest of my points, but basically I don't think it should be like that.

6. Federal and global efforts are necessary for disasters, but governments and economies should be localized. - NO. I'm sick of Utah and Wyoming having such a big say in Federal (my life) policies.

Agreed. To clarify, I meant that the federal government should be restricted to disaster relief with other issues relegated to local communities with the caveat of respecting human rights. Travel doesn't really fit into the localized model of Frowntopia, but I would want it to be based on an understanding that transportation violates #2 instead of being mandated because gubments wouldn't exist.

7. A reiteration of 4, but people should do whatever the **** they want without harming others. - CHECK with the caveat of also not harming the community as a whole.

Cool.

Totes. Others make up the community, after all.

Originally Posted by The Batlord

On point 5 I would agree that leftists engaging in street brawls makes bad press cause liberal societies are too stupid to differentiate between leftwing and rightwing street fighters and it makea bad press for leftists while fascists are better at portraying themselves as victims, but rightwing street fighters have historically led to Bad Things and so not punching them in the face isn't a winning strategy either.

Ja, determining when to use force against threats to peace is a never ending process that can be a road right to authoritarianism if you're not careful. Also not punching nazis is so boring, gotta live a little.

It does feel like CIA bait sometimes though.

[Anteater]

Ja, I want my reparations.

[Chula Vista]

Originally Posted by Frownland

Others make up the community, after all.

Depends on what color hat they wear. Lots of dumb ****s these days will do fine by their own but **** the people across the street.

[TheBig3]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Personally the only things I hope for is a slowly, slowly evolving labor movement building in response to the failure of neoliberalism and hopefully co-ops introducing the concept of workplace democracy to a wider.populace but I'm pretty sure I was born at least one generation too early to see anything meaningful on those fronts.

Same, actually, but I only have two questions:

1. Why do you think it's too early? In 10 years the shape of the country will be wildly different IMO.
2. I don't know what you think Neo-liberalism failed to do. As far as I can tell it did everything it wanted to.

For myself I just take issue with your siding with electable Democrats seemingly without criticism.

You're welcome to have whatever belief you want but I don't think it's true that I don't criticize them. I'm not even registered with the party.

[TheBig3]

Originally Posted by Frownland

I'm sure that thebig3 will give me **** for being "mb-approved" before saying that we should capitulate to fascists for the sake of popular appeal, but thems what I really believe.

I think your beliefs are just vague enough that you can always be right, which is its own moral failure, but the idea that because I'm to your alleged Right, I'm somehow a fascist.

That's not just MB approved, it's Internet Approved. Anyone who disagrees with me is Hitler. Someone call Geocities to see if they're owed royalties.

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by TheBig3

I think your beliefs are just vague enough that you can always be right, which is its own moral failure, but the idea that because I'm to your alleged Right, I'm somehow a fascist.

That's not just MB approved, it's Internet Approved. Anyone who disagrees with me is Hitler. Someone call Geocities to see if they're owed royalties.

You heard it here, folks: Frownland is always right.

I think you're more of an imperialist warmonger than a fascist fwiw.

[TheBig3]

Originally Posted by Frownland

You heard it here, folks: Frownland is always right.

I think you're more of an imperialist warmonger than a fascist fwiw.

Faint praise. I'm sure so many people meet this definition with you that I'm in too big a group to be noticed.

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by TheBig3

Same, actually, but I only have two questions:

1. Why do you think it's too early? In 10 years the shape of the country will be wildly different IMO.

Class conciousness is abysmal at the moment. Too many people are still conditioned to keep their head down and worry about their own situations. Electoral politics can achieve some things but without the people discovering some solidarity to leverage their numbers against the ruling class's wealth then it's a losing battle.
Activists have come along way since Occupy but they can't make up for a fossilized labor movement.

2. I don't know what you think Neo-liberalism failed to do. As far as I can tell it did everything it wanted to.

Well it certainly worked out for the rich but the wealth gap can only get so wide and the future can only get so bleak for everyone else before complacency turns to rage. And the boom and bust cycles of capitalism seem to be getting worse so the cracks may be getting wider.