2020 US Election Thread

[The Batlord]

I don't think it was "we" who had this argument. I wanna say it was you and Lucem but I could be wrong. I would always have said that while MAGA is at least a psuedo-fascist movement that Trump was just a wannabe fascist who lacked the political and social climate to become a fascist dictator.

[OccultHawk]

Originally Posted by jwb

I'm not saying you can't aim to replace capitalism long term but you can't wait for the revolution to happen to address climate change.

It requires drastic action within the next few decades.

Can you seriously tell me you see a plausible scenario where capitalism is replaced by a self sufficient socialism on a global scale which is also carbon neutral within the next 30 years?

It's time to get real if you give half a **** about climate change

The dream that environmental fixes can coincide with capitalism is so incredibly contrary to reality that it’s not even worth considering.

[OccultHawk]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

I don't think it was "we" who had this argument. I wanna say it was you and Lucem but I could be wrong. I would always have said that while MAGA is at least a psuedo-fascist movement that Trump was just a wannabe fascist who lacked the political and social climate to become a fascist dictator.

We’ll find out if he loses.

[The Batlord]

You're both right. You can call it defeatism or doomerism but capitalist power structures are simply not going to be overthrown at least until climate change causes a worldwide economic collapse and capitalist quarterly earnings mentality is not going to allow for any meaningful change also until climate change causes a worldwide economic collapse.

[OccultHawk]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

You're both right. You can call it defeatism or doomerism but capitalist power structures are simply not going to be overthrown at least until climate change causes a worldwide economic collapse and capitalist quarterly earnings mentality is not going to allow for any meaningful change also until climate change causes a worldwide economic collapse.

This is correct.

It’s still incredible to me that it’s easier for people to imagine a world without people than a world without capitalism. Especially considering what a recent phenomenon capitalism is. It’s goddamn sickening.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

The dream that environmental fixes can coincide with capitalism is so incredibly contrary to reality that it’s not even worth considering.

it's far easier to conceive than waiting for socialism to come

The basic technology that would be required to make the difference would be renewable energy and carbon/methane trapping technologies. None of that is out of the realm of possibility in terms of where we are currently.

They developed the atom bomb from virtually 0 understanding of nuclear physics by gathering up the top scientists and giving them the funds they needed to work. They put a man on the moon within a generation of having normalized air travel by doing the same thing.

Understand this... Even a socialist world will require the same technological advances to address climate change. So you would literally have to argue that it's somehow more plausible to fundamentally reorganize society and the economy within the next 30 years and THEN make the technology to fix climate change... Rather than getting the govt to fund the research and development to make said technology and then advocate for the restructuring of society in the long term.

You're fighting a losing battle to argue that your idea is actually more plausible.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

You're both right. You can call it defeatism or doomerism but capitalist power structures are simply not going to be overthrown at least until climate change causes a worldwide economic collapse and capitalist quarterly earnings mentality is not going to allow for any meaningful change also until climate change causes a worldwide economic collapse.

... By that time it will be far too late to do anything about it so yes... That is literally defeatism.

[OccultHawk]

You’re fighting a losing battle that somehow increased consumption (and population) can result in less environmental impact. Technology cannot change physics.

[jwb]

Either you don't understand climate change or you're being disingenuous. You don't need to change physics. You need to change the output of certain greenhouse gasses. Technology can and does do that. Every nuclear power plant in the world is currently doing that. We just need to do it better.

Again, I'm not even trying to be offensive but you just seem to have given up on life. This original conversation was about who to vote for. If you're resigned to let the world burn then obviously you wouldn't bother to vote. It's pointless to even discuss any of this when that is your POV.

[OccultHawk]

I’m not going to ****ing vote.

And environmental devastation is about human consumption. Climate change is just one factor. Nonetheless climate change will not be solved and cannot be solved under capitalism.

The idea that I’m the one who’s given up when you’re playing make believe with reality astounds me. How the **** can people be so goddamn blind they think this **** is sustainable?