2020 US Election Thread

[The Batlord]

So was your point that I'm vaguely remembering that Trump does not have the power of a fascist dictator and it's therefore irrational to call him neo-Hitler? I'm not try ing to call you out but this does seem to me like a turnaround.

[jwb]

It is sorta a turnaround. I would still maintain America isn't a Fascist dictatorship, which was the main argument we had. I always said Trump does have fascist tendencies but lacks the power of a dictator. Which is still technically true.

But I'm far less confident than I was in the ability of our institutions to prevent him from seizing power. In addition the fact that we rely on said institutions to prevent him from gaining said power is in itself enough to make it a vote against fascism.

[OccultHawk]

Originally Posted by jwb

if you're just gonna give up on humanity sure

The likelihood of a socialist revolution happening quick enough to combat climate change is 0

Either we figure out how to use govt too develope the technology needed to fix it, or we die. It's that simple. If you're ready to die go ahead. I'm not ready yet.

There’s no possibility of survival under capitalism. A system predicated on growth in by definition unsustainable. Giving up on an alternative to capitalism is giving up all hope and surrendering to the consequences. The likelihood that technology is going to fix it is 0. The sixth extinction includes us. If you’re ready to die go ahead.

[jwb]

I'm not saying you can't aim to replace capitalism long term but you can't wait for the revolution to happen to address climate change.

It requires drastic action within the next few decades.

Can you seriously tell me you see a plausible scenario where capitalism is replaced by a self sufficient socialism on a global scale which is also carbon neutral within the next 30 years?

It's time to get real if you give half a **** about climate change

[The Batlord]

I don't think it was "we" who had this argument. I wanna say it was you and Lucem but I could be wrong. I would always have said that while MAGA is at least a psuedo-fascist movement that Trump was just a wannabe fascist who lacked the political and social climate to become a fascist dictator.

[OccultHawk]

Originally Posted by jwb

I'm not saying you can't aim to replace capitalism long term but you can't wait for the revolution to happen to address climate change.

It requires drastic action within the next few decades.

Can you seriously tell me you see a plausible scenario where capitalism is replaced by a self sufficient socialism on a global scale which is also carbon neutral within the next 30 years?

It's time to get real if you give half a **** about climate change

The dream that environmental fixes can coincide with capitalism is so incredibly contrary to reality that it’s not even worth considering.

[OccultHawk]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

I don't think it was "we" who had this argument. I wanna say it was you and Lucem but I could be wrong. I would always have said that while MAGA is at least a psuedo-fascist movement that Trump was just a wannabe fascist who lacked the political and social climate to become a fascist dictator.

We’ll find out if he loses.

[The Batlord]

You're both right. You can call it defeatism or doomerism but capitalist power structures are simply not going to be overthrown at least until climate change causes a worldwide economic collapse and capitalist quarterly earnings mentality is not going to allow for any meaningful change also until climate change causes a worldwide economic collapse.

[OccultHawk]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

You're both right. You can call it defeatism or doomerism but capitalist power structures are simply not going to be overthrown at least until climate change causes a worldwide economic collapse and capitalist quarterly earnings mentality is not going to allow for any meaningful change also until climate change causes a worldwide economic collapse.

This is correct.

It’s still incredible to me that it’s easier for people to imagine a world without people than a world without capitalism. Especially considering what a recent phenomenon capitalism is. It’s goddamn sickening.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

The dream that environmental fixes can coincide with capitalism is so incredibly contrary to reality that it’s not even worth considering.

it's far easier to conceive than waiting for socialism to come

The basic technology that would be required to make the difference would be renewable energy and carbon/methane trapping technologies. None of that is out of the realm of possibility in terms of where we are currently.

They developed the atom bomb from virtually 0 understanding of nuclear physics by gathering up the top scientists and giving them the funds they needed to work. They put a man on the moon within a generation of having normalized air travel by doing the same thing.

Understand this... Even a socialist world will require the same technological advances to address climate change. So you would literally have to argue that it's somehow more plausible to fundamentally reorganize society and the economy within the next 30 years and THEN make the technology to fix climate change... Rather than getting the govt to fund the research and development to make said technology and then advocate for the restructuring of society in the long term.

You're fighting a losing battle to argue that your idea is actually more plausible.