2020 US Election Thread

[Lisnaholic]

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Have they even emptied those ICE concentration camps yet?

I suspect that, to be done responsably, it takes more than just throwing open the door. Biden hasn't been in power for even a month yet - and if you're talking about the children in cages held at the border, well one of the big probs is that under J Sessions, they were separated without adequate details/contacts of family members being taken. That's a mess that can't be fixed overnight.

Originally Posted by Anteater

Every administration is "enthusiastic" about deporting people. All of them. The only difference between Republican and Democratic administrations on that point is that the media tends to pay more attention and give more coverage to those issues when the new boss has an R instead of a D, so when bad things happen you are more acutely aware of it.

I don't think that's an acurrate statement, Anteater. From memory, only Trump instigated a deliberate policy of separating children from parents at the border as a deterrent to other immigrants.

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Considering Obama's regime was the one to start putting people in cages I don't see Joe being good on this issue. I think he just cares about the optics of being the anti-Trump.

For the UK and the US immigration is a really tricky issue, but it seems clear that the Biden admin will take a more humane approach. Haven't they just appointed a Latin American guy to take charge of the department? Good sign, imo. Also, even if Biden is only optically anti-Trump, that would surely oblige him to make some much-needed changes.

[OccultHawk]

I suspect that, to be done responsably, it takes more than just throwing open the door. Biden hasn't been in power for even a month yet - and if you're talking about the children in cages held at the border, well one of the big probs is that under J Sessions, they were separated without adequate details/contacts of family members being taken. That's a mess that can't be fixed overnight.

Should they have just left the Jews in Auschwitz, too? You open the doors. You beg forgiveness. You put them up in a decent hotel. You pay for their meals. You put the FBI and missing persons in charge of reuniting the families.

It really isn’t rocket science and there really doesn’t need to be any ****ing excuses.

[OccultHawk]

For the UK and the US immigration is a really tricky issue,

They’re totally different. It’s not tricky for the US. We live on stolen land and the rest of the world has every right to it that we do.

The only people who have a right to protest immigration are Native Americans.

[Lisnaholic]

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Should they have just left the Jews in Auschwitz, too? You open the doors. You beg forgiveness. You put them up in a decent hotel. You pay for their meals. You put the FBI and missing persons in charge of reuniting the families.

It really isn’t rocket science and there really doesn’t need to be any ****ing excuses.

I'm not sure about your analogy, OH. My feeling is that releasing innocent German citizens back into their own land is a more straightforward affair than releasing what may be a mixed bag of people; some orphans, some undocumented, some not Americans. Still, I have to plead ignorance on the actual details.

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

They’re totally different. It’s not tricky for the US. We live on stolen land and the rest of the world has every right to it that we do.

The only people who have a right to protest immigration are Native Americans.

I said immigration was a tricky issue for both countries, not that they were the same.
It's natural that when you grow up in a place, you have a sense that it's "yours": that feeling of ownership only takes one generation to develop, and in the US, it's been a lot more than 1 generation of Europeans taking root there.
It's also a fundamental of human behaviour to think that "What I have is mine, and therefore, not yours". TBH, at a personal level, that is why I have a front door to my house; I don't want to have other people drifting through it. So at that micro level, I behave as an anti-immigration guy, which is why I have ambivalent feelings about immigration policies in general. At one level, free immigration is honourable and egalitarian, at another level, it's not exactly what I want.
So, two rather off-the-cuff reasons there why I consider immigration to be a tricky issue.

[OccultHawk]

I'm not sure about your analogy, OH. My feeling is that releasing innocent German citizens back into their own land is a more straightforward affair than releasing what may be a mixed bag of people; some orphans, some undocumented, some not Americans. Still, I have to plead ignorance on the actual details.

Whether my analogy is a pure equivalence or not is irrelevant. They can’t be put up in a hotel and fed good food while the government uses missing persons resources to reunite their families? It is 100% is exactly that simply.

I didn’t vote for Biden to support a different tribe or different rhetoric. I demand a different government that is moral and better.

As a country we did something very wrong. We can’t continue to justify it because we have a new face in the White House. We have to do everything we can to make it right.

Frankly, it’s pretty sickening to be having this discussion with people who totally know better.

It's natural that when you grow up in a place, you have a sense that it's "yours"

I’m not throwing this at you or anyone who isn’t American. But in America that’s a cornerstone of white supremacy. It’s not “ours”. (And before Ant jumps in I know that whites aren’t the only one with regressive immigration views)

that is why I have a front door to my house

Sorry man. And this isn’t to you because you’re not American but after the last four years that sounds way too much like the brown people are coming to kick in your doors **** we’ve been bathing in for far too long. I know that’s not how you meant it and it’s not how you feel and you’re the opposite of racist but as an American I’m just NO on that ****.

Open the borders
Nobody illegal
Sanctuary everywhere

[Anteater]

The problem is less about having a realistic immigration process and more about taking a regressive methodology to the point of parody. To that end, I think Biden will make amends.

Jeff Sessions was a problem (and Trump's executive order back in 2018 didn't do enough to curtail him), but just remember that (also) prior to the Trump Administration there was also nobody actually taking down actual numbers on things like "how many kids are actually being seperated from their families?" and things like that...just like they weren't keeping track of who was going into those cages and for how long.

When the media discovered these things about Bush and Obama's administrations back in 2018-2019, they just wrote it off and decided to lie saying "Well, we don't have the numbers so it must have never happened or just happened once or twice", which was not the right thing to do because their apathy towards real truth gives Biden's administration a pass to continue those practices, just not in blatantly obvious ways.

[OccultHawk]

Originally Posted by Anteater

Jeff Sessions was a problem (and Trump's executive order back in 2018 didn't do enough to curtail him), but just remember that (also) prior to the Trump Administration there was also nobody actually taking down actual numbers on things like "how many kids are actually being seperated from their families?" and things like that...just like they weren't keeping track of who was going into those cages and for how long.

When the media discovered these things about Bush and Obama's administrations back in 2018-2019, they just wrote it off and decided to lie saying "Well, we don't have the numbers so it must have never happened or just happened once or twice", which was not the right thing to do because their apathy towards real truth gives Biden's administration a pass to continue those practices, just not in blatantly obvious ways.

I nixed the first paragraph where I’m not with you but on all this you’re dead on. Time to hold the dems feet to the flames for murder.

Unless they get smart fast.

[Lisnaholic]

Whether my analogy is a pure equivalence or not is irrelevant. They can’t be put up in a hotel and fed good food while the government uses missing persons resources to reunite their families? It is 100% is exactly that simply.

Well, it's a nice idea. There are details about funding, security, documentation to be sorted out, but yeah, especially with those under-aged kids orphaned by the Trump admin, an immediate improvement of circs would be the humane thing to do.

We live on stolen land...

This is probably true of most countries of the world, though especially true, or evident, for N and S America of course. But if you dip into history, every country has a history of invasion and conquest, doesn't it? I don't know how much Celtic DNA I have, but I imagine I also have Roman, Saxon, Anglo, Norman - all invaders in their day. Please don't tell me I was living on stolen land too.

Thanks for cutting me some slack on the racism issue, OH.
In a similar way, this isn't directed at you, but is a genuine open question about migration:-

Open the borders
Nobody illegal
Sanctuary everywhere

If we subscribe to this noble ideal, how can we morally justify having a fence round our house and a front door?

[OccultHawk]

If we subscribe to this noble ideal, how can we morally justify having a fence round our house and a front door?

Personal space shouldn’t be confused with private property. And personal property as opposed to private property shouldn’t be confused with public property. A basic rule of thumb is do you live in a way that would be impossible for the entire world to live - in this case in terms of personal space you claim as your own.

I personally do not. I do not claim or use more housing than is reasonable. There’s easily enough housing in America to shelter every person at the extent to which I have. That’s a fair benchmark.

Living in a McMansion with rooms you don’t use is immoral. “Owning” property where don’t even live is extremely immoral.

A private room. A shared kitchen. A toilet and shower for every five people or so. That’s reasonable. Beyond that is space hoarding.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Personal space shouldn’t be confused with private property. And personal property as opposed to private property shouldn’t be confused with public property. A basic rule of thumb is do you live in a way that would be impossible for the entire world to live - in this case in terms of personal space you claim as your own.

I personally do not. I do not claim or use more housing than is reasonable. There’s easily enough housing in America to shelter every person at the extent to which I have. That’s a fair benchmark.

Living in a McMansion with rooms you don’t use is immoral. “Owning” property where don’t even live is extremely immoral.

A private room. A shared kitchen. A toilet and shower for every five people or so. That’s reasonable. Beyond that is space hoarding.

I see you went and got yourself banned. Here's some homework for you as I just saw this convo and feel like responding even through you're banned for 24 hrs.


Do you think we could use the resources we have now to have all 7 billion people in the world live comfortably by american standards in a basic apartment?

You might not be factoring in that you take things like clean running water, electricity and properly constructed housing for granted. Where as vast bulks of the globe live in shanty towns where none of this applies., To them you're part of the 1%.