2020 US Election Thread

[Lisnaholic]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Considering that the incompetence of neoliberalism and its abandonment of the working class is what led to Trump then some neoliberal being neutral in comparison isn't reason for celebration cause Biden is just resetting the clock to the next right wing populist grifter who might end up being a much more competent psychopath.

This is all bad even if it feels like a reprieve. American democracy is just as crumbling and threatened as it was before Biden won the election. If Trump was Robespierre then Biden is the Thermidor reaction.

That's a lot of pessimism, Batlord, and a lot of certainty. I'm not sure that politics is as predetermined as you suggest.

For instance, things like incompetence/abandonment of the working class can change. Perhaps they have been true in the past; but perhaps the Dems will also notice that and take measures to correct both failings. Perhaps the working class will realise that they are not best served by the Kushners/Trumps, McConnells, etc, and shift their allegiance back to the Dems.
As for American democracy, it's just taken an unpredecented pummelling, during Trump's time in office and post-election too. After something has been demonstrated to be vulnerable, that's typically the time when people decide to repair and strengthen it; perhaps American democracy will be patched up better than before.

Not saying all those things are going to happen, just saying that I don't share your conviction that they won't.

[OccultHawk]

abandonment of the working class can change

Imagine what it would take to redistribute the wealth. There’s two horrible scenarios:

1) Not redistributing the wealth

2) Redistributing the wealth

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

That's a lot of pessimism, Batlord, and a lot of certainty. I'm not sure that politics is as predetermined as you suggest.

For instance, things like incompetence/abandonment of the working class can change. Perhaps they have been true in the past; but perhaps the Dems will also notice that and take measures to correct both failings. Perhaps the working class will realise that they are not best served by the Kushners/Trumps, McConnells, etc, and shift their allegiance back to the Dems.
As for American democracy, it's just taken an unpredecented pummelling, during Trump's time in office and post-election too. After something has been demonstrated to be vulnerable, that's typically the time when people decide to repair and strengthen it; perhaps American democracy will be patched up better than before.

Not saying all those things are going to happen, just saying that I don't share your conviction that they won't.

I'm sorry but that's dumb ****ing **** garbage optimism for the sake of optimism and I think anyone who believes it should be punched in the face.

For instance, things like incompetence/abandonment of the working class can change. Perhaps they have been true in the past; but perhaps the Dems will also notice that and take measures to correct both failings. Perhaps the working class will realise that they are not best served by the Kushners/Trumps, McConnells, etc, and shift their allegiance back to the Dems.

This implies that the American betrayal of the working class is recent and caused by the Republicans. Both parties have abandoned the working class going back half a century at least and have entrenched ideologies going back decades based on keeping the working class in a perpetual state of crisis so that they are always both convinced that their particular party are the only thing keeping them from financial ruin but also convinced that they have no power and might as well not even vote. Donald Trump is honestly the first time any amount have felt any kind of hope for representation since maybe before I was born, which is kind of the point of all this since we're so desperate for a voice that so many turned to an obvious grifter and latched on to him like an abusive husband.

Shifting their allegiance back to the Dems with a candidate like Biden is simply going back to old hopelessness, leaving the population just as vulnerable to another populist grifter as we were before Trump.

As for American democracy, it's just taken an unpredecented pummelling, during Trump's time in office and post-election too. After something has been demonstrated to be vulnerable, that's typically the time when people decide to repair and strengthen it; perhaps American democracy will be patched up better than before.

Is it? Maybe if American democracy was in any way flexible and capable of enacting reforms that could be agreed upon I could buy this but our legislature is too paralyzed from partisanship to agree on anything besides rubber stamping defense bills. Our legislature is a corpse. This is why Supreme Court picks are crises now. The biggest issues our legislature acknowledge are all Court issues that our representatives concentrate on so that they don't have to deal with actual legislature but simply pass that responsibility onto the Courts so that Congress people only have to campaign on making sure that the other side doesn't get to choose judges. This is not how a democracy should function. This will end up being taught in schools outside of America as one of the signs of impending governmental collapse before some horrific consequence associated with the next Hitler.

Not saying all those things are going to happen, just saying that I don't share your conviction that they won't.

And I think you are tragically naive.

[ribbons]

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

Thanks Marie, you too. One of the coolest, fair-minded, well-meaning mods we have ever had on MB.

Just want to chime in here that this is so true! Cool, fair-minded, and well-meaning describes her perfectly. Marie is such a great person and mod.

And by coincidence, you're all those things too, Lisna. Except you're not a mod. : )

[Trollheart]

@Batty: I see you concentrated on tearing Lisna's argument for hope for the future down and conveniently ignored my simple question, so I'll ask it again, so you can ignore it again:

what's your solution?

It's easy to rip everything apart; the skill is in being able to put it back together again, and the REAL skill is in doing so in such a way that the whole is better than it was originally. Ideas? Or just moans, complaints and criticism?

[Psy-Fi]

Former Houston police captain charged with pointing gun at air-conditioner repairman, believing he was a voter fraud 'mastermind'

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by Trollheart

@Batty: I see you concentrated on tearing Lisna's argument for hope for the future down and conveniently ignored my simple question, so I'll ask it again, so you can ignore it again:

what's your solution?

It's easy to rip everything apart; the skill is in being able to put it back together again, and the REAL skill is in doing so in such a way that the whole is better than it was originally. Ideas? Or just moans, complaints and criticism?

Well electing Bernie would have been a step in the right direction. Medicare 4 all and increased taxes on the wealthy should have been a no brainer for non-stupid people.

[OccultHawk]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Well electing Bernie would have been a step in the right direction. Medicare 4 all and increased taxes on the wealthy should have been a no brainer for non-stupid people.

Church

[Psy-Fi]

Biden taps Buttigieg for transportation

[Lisnaholic]

Of course I look at US politics from a rather ill-informed distance; I haven't experienced its consequences on a daily basis my entire life. So Batlord is entitled to some passion on the subject, though I was surprised at how vociferously he attacked an idea that I didn't think was particularly controversial: that the future is as yet unwritten, and could bring with it change for the better. Not "will bring", which would be over-optimistic, but "could bring", allowing for a possibility that Batlord seems determined to deny in advance.

There may be many terrible things in store for the US; evictions, unemployment, hunger are all set to rise. But I will stand by what I said: when the going gets tough, that can often be a catalyst for change for the better. To my mind, the recent election result could be read as an example of that, with its unprecedented voter turnout, an unprecedented popular-vote majority for Dems, first female black VP, etc.

As for Batlord's analysis of the legislature, I felt myself out of my depth on that, though I can see that if the GOP retains the Senate, there's going to be a lot of unproductive deadlock. But again, those Georgia run-offs haven't been decided yet. Depending on the results on Jan 5, either Batlord should prepare for a tsunami of unrestrained optimism from me, or I will steel myself for a corrosive "told you so" post from him. But that is also one of my points; that the future could go either way.