Trollheart

Let's have a discussion about poverty. Would it be an oversimplification (though still, I believe, true) to say that poor people have never really been poor because they're poor, but because the richer classes keep them so? Down through history, men have always desired a worker/slave class to do all the work and bring in the revenue, whether it be for their kingdoms, cities or corporations, and the rigid class system that existed, at least in Britain, up to about the middle of the twentieth century, effectively kept the poor "in their place": certain jobs (the best, highest-paying and most respected ones) were out of their reach. You want to be a doctor? Don't be poor. You'd like to teach? Come from a rich or landed or titled family (preferably all three). This is where the phrase "Ideas above his station" comes from: you were born into one class, and not expected, or allowed, to move beyond that. You had to know your place. It's only relatively recently that the barriers have been, to some extent, broken down as the class system evaporates or at least draws back, becomes less important, less a governing factor in people's lives.

How much do we think about the poor? Do we, sitting down to a nice dinner and nudging the central heating up a notch cos it's cold outside, ever think of those who have nothing? There's a line in a Genesis song called "Undertow" which goes "Curtains are drawn/Now the fire warms the room/ Meanwhile outside wind from the northeast chills the air/ It will soon be snowing out there/ And some there are/ Cold, they prepare for a sleepless night/ Maybe this will be their last fight." Then the song goes on "But we're safe in each other's embrace/ All fears go as I look on your face."

Are we all like this? Do we care? I'm not a rich man, but I'm not poor. I did work all my life, so nobody can say I had anything handed to me, though what I have is at any rate not much. I live in a council house my parents rented, I have very little savings (we're not living hand to mouth or anything but we don't have much disposable income to speak of - Chula and his quarter million makes me green with envy, and I wish I had saved more when I was able to but anyway) but I can pay the bills, meet medical expenses, get the odd thing for the house - carpet, paint etc - and if I want to buy something, generally, I can. I may have to wait a week or so, but unless it's something really expensive it's usually within my financial reach.

Do I think of those who struggle to literally put food on the table or clothes on their kids' backs when I'm agonising over whether or not to buy that new pair of headphones, or whatever? No, not really. Do I care? On a very surface level, yes, but beyond that, other than the usual and useless "Oh isn't it terrible how many poor/homeless people there are?" bleating, I couldn't say I do much if anything to alleviate the situation. Because when it comes down to it, it's not something that directly affects me. It's sad, and I'm ashamed to say it, but it's the truth. Have I contributed to poverty by not buying from local businesses? Almost certainly. Do I pass beggars on the street? Most times. Is this typical of us as a species? What do you think? Have you other ideas?

Let's talk about it.

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Cuthbert

I think it's shameful that a country like the UK can have people sleeping on the streets.

No excuse for homelessness in a country as wealthy as ours. It's embarrassing, tragic and shameful.

Trollheart

Ireland is as bad. Families living in one hotel room. Houses being built but for the private sector only. A useless response from the Government to homelessness, even after one man died of exposure on the steps of the Dail (our parliament building) a few years back. If it wasn't for charities like Focus and the Peter McVerry Trust, these people would be ignored, stepped over by the politicians on their way into work.

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Cuthbert

Seems to be getting worse as well, over here anyway. I saw an article recently.on how some Scandinavian country had pretty much eradicated homelessness. Not sure how they did it.

Then I saw this yesterday:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/...west-midlands/

x 50

What exactly are they supposed to do? Kill themselves???

Trollheart

Back to the days of Dickens, huh, when the police would "move rough sleepers on". Jesus ****ing Christ.

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Psy-Fi

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OccultHawk

Great thread and I will indulge.

I’m going to start with a friendly criticism

That reminds of in your WWII thread where you just assume that everyone should accept that violence and tribalism and warfare is indelibly hardwired into our DNA.

When I taught US History the textbook issued to my students stated southern plantation owners needed slaves. One of the key things I wanted to teach them was how to identify loaded language that serves to justify something that’s unjustifiable. I started the lesson simply by having the students distinguish wants from needs. I came up with a little theatrical thing where I’d take one of the biggest kids in the class and have him stand next to me and say if this kid wraps his fingers around my neck and chokes me I will NEED air. Then I would ask them why do you think this book says needed instead of wanted.

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Cuthbert

Good post.

The Hawk dropping them truth bombs.

Trollheart

Nitpick all you want, man. Need, want: what's the difference really here? Someone has always been seen as having to be the one to do the work. Look at The Time Machine: nobody did anything, they were all equal(ly lazy) and what happened? Big monsters from underground yummed them up. Someone has to do the work, so man as a race NEEDED someone to do that. Of course they also wanted it, but if the work wasn't done nobody could live in luxury, so I think need works well here. I don't mean to condone it, but it's the same as saying man has an innate need for conflict: he does. If everyone was ultra-peaceful you can bet it would only be a while before someone punched someone. We're hard-coded to survive, and you survive by being the strongest/smartest/fittest/biggest *******. That's just how it is.

Anyway, your little criticism aside, what's your view on the actual subject? It's all semantics, what you're saying there, but it's beside the point. Give us your opinion on poverty; I bet it'll be pretty revolutionary and shocking, something along the lines of "if we killed all the rich ...."

Don't disappoint me, now.

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Frownland

*squints*

Are you serious?

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