Poverty
 

Let's have a discussion about poverty. Would it be an oversimplification (though still, I believe, true) to say that poor people have never really been poor because they're poor, but because the richer classes keep them so? Down through history, men have always desired a worker/slave class to do all the work and bring in the revenue, whether it be for their kingdoms, cities or corporations, and the rigid class system that existed, at least in Britain, up to about the middle of the twentieth century, effectively kept the poor "in their place": certain jobs (the best, highest-paying and most respected ones) were out of their reach. You want to be a doctor? Don't be poor. You'd like to teach? Come from a rich or landed or titled family (preferably all three). This is where the phrase "Ideas above his station" comes from: you were born into one class, and not expected, or allowed, to move beyond that. You had to know your place. It's only relatively recently that the barriers have been, to some extent, broken down as the class system evaporates or at least draws back, becomes less important, less a governing factor in people's lives.

How much do we think about the poor? Do we, sitting down to a nice dinner and nudging the central heating up a notch cos it's cold outside, ever think of those who have nothing? There's a line in a Genesis song called "Undertow" which goes "Curtains are drawn/Now the fire warms the room/ Meanwhile outside wind from the northeast chills the air/ It will soon be snowing out there/ And some there are/ Cold, they prepare for a sleepless night/ Maybe this will be their last fight." Then the song goes on "But we're safe in each other's embrace/ All fears go as I look on your face."

Are we all like this? Do we care? I'm not a rich man, but I'm not poor. I did work all my life, so nobody can say I had anything handed to me, though what I have is at any rate not much. I live in a council house my parents rented, I have very little savings (we're not living hand to mouth or anything but we don't have much disposable income to speak of - Chula and his quarter million makes me green with envy, and I wish I had saved more when I was able to but anyway) but I can pay the bills, meet medical expenses, get the odd thing for the house - carpet, paint etc - and if I want to buy something, generally, I can. I may have to wait a week or so, but unless it's something really expensive it's usually within my financial reach.

Do I think of those who struggle to literally put food on the table or clothes on their kids' backs when I'm agonising over whether or not to buy that new pair of headphones, or whatever? No, not really. Do I care? On a very surface level, yes, but beyond that, other than the usual and useless "Oh isn't it terrible how many poor/homeless people there are?" bleating, I couldn't say I do much if anything to alleviate the situation. Because when it comes down to it, it's not something that directly affects me. It's sad, and I'm ashamed to say it, but it's the truth. Have I contributed to poverty by not buying from local businesses? Almost certainly. Do I pass beggars on the street? Most times. Is this typical of us as a species? What do you think? Have you other ideas?

Let's talk about it.

I think it's shameful that a country like the UK can have people sleeping on the streets.

No excuse for homelessness in a country as wealthy as ours. It's embarrassing, tragic and shameful.

Ireland is as bad. Families living in one hotel room. Houses being built but for the private sector only. A useless response from the Government to homelessness, even after one man died of exposure on the steps of the Dail (our parliament building) a few years back. If it wasn't for charities like Focus and the Peter McVerry Trust, these people would be ignored, stepped over by the politicians on their way into work.

Seems to be getting worse as well, over here anyway. I saw an article recently.on how some Scandinavian country had pretty much eradicated homelessness. Not sure how they did it.

Then I saw this yesterday:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/...west-midlands/

:o: x 50

What exactly are they supposed to do? Kill themselves???

Back to the days of Dickens, huh, when the police would "move rough sleepers on". Jesus ****ing Christ.

Great thread and I will indulge.

I’m going to start with a friendly criticism

That reminds of in your WWII thread where you just assume that everyone should accept that violence and tribalism and warfare is indelibly hardwired into our DNA.

When I taught US History the textbook issued to my students stated southern plantation owners needed slaves. One of the key things I wanted to teach them was how to identify loaded language that serves to justify something that’s unjustifiable. I started the lesson simply by having the students distinguish wants from needs. I came up with a little theatrical thing where I’d take one of the biggest kids in the class and have him stand next to me and say if this kid wraps his fingers around my neck and chokes me I will NEED air. Then I would ask them why do you think this book says needed instead of wanted.

Good post.

The Hawk dropping them truth bombs.

Nitpick all you want, man. Need, want: what's the difference really here? Someone has always been seen as having to be the one to do the work. Look at The Time Machine: nobody did anything, they were all equal(ly lazy) and what happened? Big monsters from underground yummed them up. Someone has to do the work, so man as a race NEEDED someone to do that. Of course they also wanted it, but if the work wasn't done nobody could live in luxury, so I think need works well here. I don't mean to condone it, but it's the same as saying man has an innate need for conflict: he does. If everyone was ultra-peaceful you can bet it would only be a while before someone punched someone. We're hard-coded to survive, and you survive by being the strongest/smartest/fittest/biggest *******. That's just how it is.

Anyway, your little criticism aside, what's your view on the actual subject? It's all semantics, what you're saying there, but it's beside the point. Give us your opinion on poverty; I bet it'll be pretty revolutionary and shocking, something along the lines of "if we killed all the rich ...."

Don't disappoint me, now.

*squints*

Are you serious?

In this case, yes.

The difference between needing to oppress the lower class and wanting to oppress the lower class? Those really sound analogous to you?

Well obviously not. What I mean is that someone has to do the work. It's a need. If nothing is done, then nothing will result. Of course it's not to be condoned, but the point is that while the upper classes wanted someone else to do the work, they also needed them to, as they weren't going to do it. So in this case, need and want were and are interchangeable. This isn't always the case of course, but here it is.

Split hairs all you want: I'm not saying by any means the setup is right or should be as it is, but that's the way things are. Maybe it is a need, I don't know: a deepseated need to control and boss around and lord it over the lower classes that drove, and drives, those in power. I'm not one, so I wouldn't know.

I've just watched a three-part documentary on Hitler. He wanted power, of course, we all know that. But didn't he also have a burning need for it? Doesn't mean it's right, but needs can drive wants.

But yeah, thanks both of you for focussing on one perhaps misused or ill-chosen word in my OP and ignoring the actual intent and theme of the thread. Great. Well done. Think you could actually take part in the thread now, instead of pulling it apart? Got an actual opinion, or a comment on poverty, not how I happened to phrase something?

tl;dr: ignore the word I used if it annoys you or you don't agree with it and move on with an actual contribution if you can please.

Language exposes unconscious attitudes that we unknowingly perpetuate.

The very obvious opinion on it: is bad.

How do you feel about rape?

I really wish my uncle would have invested in lube.

Fine: the word has been changed in the OP. Can we stop getting bogged down now, and move on?

I’m not trying to hard ass you. If you’re trying to present two possible causes of poverty for consideration what’s the first one?

I don't typically speak up about jokes especially since I personally make jokes as well. However, I'm gonna ask that jokes about rape take a place off the forum. Nothing about it is funny or anything of the sort.

I'm just asking nicely. It's just not something you joke about.

You've joked about worse. Request denied.

I expected this response.

After the Paris massacre thing I think we both lost the right to demand censorship of offensive jokes.

How do you rape a nun?

**** her without consent.

You got joke raped.

I asked nicely. But that's fine. I know I've joked about worse (we all have) but it's also not the first time I've asked for rape not to be used for humor. I've never once joked about it.

Church

TH, the book we were just talking about recently, Sagan’s Forgotten Ancestors, deals with this really fairly. He explains where our genetic proclivities come from and makes a fantastic case, using evolutionary biology the entire way, that peace is possible.

I understand that. If she still says no you may have to take another approach.

We can end the rape jokes now. It'll only go south from here so just quit while you're all ahead.

That's why you're my fave.

Rabid animals; prosecute, incarcerate. Shoot them sometimes. Defend innocence enthusiastically.
I really want to read that. I wish it were on Kindle. Batty, what was that site again, that library one?

Sorry Hawk: for some reason it didn't take the other quote, the one about two causes for poverty. All I was saying is that it isn't the case (or wasn't) that people are just born poor and then it's their own fault they can't get out of poverty, but that the haves in society keep the have-nots down. I think that's a valid enough argument, is it?

It is. Another problem we have is time and setting. Just saying poverty leaves the door open to every civilization that ever had a monetary system. Then inside that we have billions of individuals.

I have a feeling you’re thinking like you did when I took apart your time travel vs space travel question. You’re thinking ffs you know what I mean just work with me here. But I’m thinking feudalism, slavery, victims of famine, failed revolutions, unfair banking practices, capitalism vs communism, IMF debt, IMF bailouts, American slums, modern day India, credit card debt, student loans, expensive health problems, and on and on.

You poopooed the first thing I said as a persnickety point over semantics but I was opening the conversation with a point about how the haves dictate the language we use to justify the exploitation of the poor.

Anyway, if you’re looking for universal patterns, where there’s money you’re very likely to find people who are able to hoard it and others who suffer from being on the other side. It’s also very likely that money is power and power means more money but the degree to which the cards are stacked against the poor vary from situation to situation. A dude in Ireland might have a bad hand but a kid in Ethiopia was probably never even allowed to know there’s such a thing as a hand.

Damn

Nice link

To say the least

Libgen is so boss that it's already been shut down and it didn't take (since its servers are Russian and American fascists can't dig out the roots). Its main use is generally free digital text books and academic articles so that college students don't have to mortgage their souls for pieces of paper wrapped in cardboard, but it's got just about everything printed. If I can't find collections of comic books on my other piracy sites I go to Libgen and download them issue by issue cause it's got ****ing everything.

It actually works on my iPhone. I just downloaded a free book and started reading just now.

It's not the only book piracy site I know but it's definitely the premier one by a 100 miles. If it can be put on the internet there is an entire web of thievery sites dedicated to it.

It really chaps my ass when you look something up and they’ll only give you the abstract.

I’m like really. I’m pretty sure that I’m the only one on earth who just wants to read this. Not for a grade. Not because I’m on the dissertation team. I’m just ****ing interested but you’re going to keep it hidden up your ass instead. **** them.

What if you sell the poor timeshares?

That was actually also the first thing that came to my mind when I saw that quote. :laughing:

This. All caps and shouted at passersby in front of Walmart.