The Batlord

Yes those fair trade bananas are really kicking all that factory smoke in the teeth.

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Trollheart

Factory smoke doesn't have teeth, and bananas don't have feet with which to kick, so your statement is fundamentally flawed...

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jwb

FTR I don't rule communism out I just don't see it as some sort of inevitability.

I do think capitalism isn't the end of history. It will probably eventually be replaced but it's still a question mark to me what will likely replace it and how soon. And by what mechanism.

You say the elites will never allow capitalism to fade without revolution, but wouldn't that have applied to all the previous economic and political power structures as well? The transition to capitalism from feudalism was mostly just a subversion of the ancient power structures by new forms of wealth creation that the elites simply didn't control.

It seems like revolution has an inherent sort of accelerationist logic to it where society basically has to crumble and deteriorate in order to create conditions necessary for people to be provoked into rebellion. I'm skeptical that this dynamic could ever provide a suitable foundation for any sort of worthwhile socialist society.

Gutmensch

What do you think about my executions?

In my opinion everything important is said.

One problem of your thinking in my opinion is that you believe in "things" like capitalism and the "system" that comes after.

But these are just notions. Why should we dispense with the powerful effects of market mechanisms?

We have market economies which will be more and more regulated. You could also say "humanized". That's the simple truth. This process continues since about 200 years.

And this process will go on. At the "end" of this process we won't have a different thing than "capitalism". We'll still have market economies - but much more regulated than we can imagine today. Much more sustainable.

And very probably with a universal basic income.

Imagine the 19th century. Most of these Manchester capitalists of that time could never imagine that workers live so much better today, have many more rights and still work in a market economy, under market conditions. But which market conditions? We make these conditions.

It's a simple evolution. And the thinking in so-called "systems" goes wrong.

PS: If you want this evolution try to consume with a social and ecological conscience - and don't think so much about Marxism and capitalism.

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jwb

I dunno what I think of your executions tbh. Your English needs a little work my friend. Not that I'm judging, I know how hard it is to learn a different language. But yeah it's not entirely clear what you mean at times.

I don't see any inherent reason why capitalism will be the end of history. The 200 years you cited is not much time at all compared to the rest of history. It seems like a lack of imagination and perspective to think nothing will replace the current order imo.

The Batlord

If you can't see how fair trade bananas are going to save capitalism then you're a Russia bot.

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jwb

I think you underestimate how bad the working conditions were in the 1800s/early 1900s. Guarantee you those jobs were even more soulless and unsafe and for worse pay.

Main difference today is automation is getting rid of jobs. Yeah they're at peak productivity but that's cause of the robots not the workers.

OccultHawk

I never experienced anything like the brutality he describes in this mother****er.

I get what elph means with the soulless nature of surveillance capitalism though.

But you’d have to dig deep into the bowels of American workplaces to rival this ****.

But what’s happening in places like the Congo and Brazil to maintain our lifestyles might be worse than what Sinclair was describing which I found more horrific than any descriptions on slavery that I’ve read (and I’ve read a fair bit on it)

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OccultHawk

Yes.

And yes the American workplace is a 21st C gulag. I have seen some horrible **** with my own eyes.

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jwb

yeh but that is suffering happening in other countries. That suffering in other countries can only lead to revolution in said countries. It won't lead to revolution here. If only humans were so empathetic as to revolt on someone else's behalf. Doesn't seem to work that way.



yeh but that only seems to reinforce my previous skepticism of the industrial conditions leading to class consciousness leading to Revolution etc

Foucault was describing a way that entrenched powers secure themselves through veiling their mechanisms. That's precisely what I'm saying is the veiling only makes it seem even more entrenched.