Universal Basic Income or Class Warfare

OccultHawk · 11-01-2020, 12:33 PM

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In fact north Korea is the one thing I think Trump got right.

He’s handled the North better than any other president since they were split off.

OccultHawk · 11-26-2020, 07:42 PM

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A Venezuelan judge found six American oil executives guilty of corruption charges Thursday and immediately sentenced them to prison.

The judge’s ruling came with sentences of more than eight years for each. The so-called Citgo 6 had been lured to Venezuela for three years ago for a business meeting and arrested.

They are employees of the Houston-based Citgo refining company, which is owned by Venezuela’s state oil company, PDVSA.

Go go go Venezuela!!!

The Batlord · 11-26-2020, 08:22 PM

Heh. They fell for the ol' free tv at the police station scam.

~~jwb~~ · 11-27-2020, 03:50 AM

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Originally Posted by OccultHawk

I know the three dictators have inflicted horrors on the people and all that wasn’t necessary but it was a culmination of so many bad cards

the occupation from Japan / the cutting their country in half / how their cultural heritage reinforced a bad reaction to the situation / the Korean War / Russia and China in their heads / seeing the south sellout to Japan who were so unforgivably nasty and then things work out for the south and not them and the way their culture digests that kind of indignity

Then there’s the isolation and the propaganda and the fear and one of the worst famines of the 20th century

I mean damn maybe if the world just admitted hey we really ****ed up here

I know this is one of the least inarticulate posts I’ve ever made but maybe if the world came to them with a sense of humility instead of constant judgement. I get that it’s hard not to judge horrible dictators but so many ****ty things had to happen first for all that to fall into place.

At the least that famine in the nineties was a terrible failure for all of humanity not just them. We really ****ed up too. The blood is on our hands too. I always say that but it’s really true.

I sorta hear you but I think this is slightly naive

Circumstance explains most of the evil **** nations do. The american empire is pretty much a clear result of the circumstances of the aftermath of ww2.

I do think the main reason that communist regimes have always failed is cause they only manage to seize power in the most unstable, impoverished and backwater societies. That's probably cause contrary to what Marx predicted, the wealthier industrialized societies make people too complacent to gamble on revolution, regardless of the wealth gap.

~~jwb~~ · 11-27-2020, 03:54 AM

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Originally Posted by elphenor

Chomsky just argues that every economy has been a control economy until it can compete

The US used slave labor tariffs, and heavy government planning

that's not a planned economy tho lol

There's no such thing as a purely free market economy. All capitalist states have government interference.

But an actual planned economy is about removing the market influence to the highest degree possible. Though even with planned economies none of them truly removed the market 100%.

~~jwb~~ · 11-27-2020, 04:15 AM

I mean saying something will replace capitalism eventually is like predicting the world will end eventually. It's not much of a prediction.

But Marx had specific ideas about how and why capitalism would be replaced. Which so far haven't panned out.

He was literally anticipating revolution in his lifetime in countries like England, France, Germany. There were some failed attempts but no successes.

He never talked about or truly anticipated countries like Russia or China leading the way. For good reason. They didn't have the necessary industrial infrastructure in place. Part of why they turned out so disastrous.

But these days the formerly industrial societies are becoming deindustrialized service and gig economies. Instead of increasingly bad conditions at the workplace that leads to class consciousness and Revolution, it lead to worker reforms and unions. Which leads to complacency.

This is why I don't call myself a Marxist. I'm fine with the idea of communism if it's carried out properly but at some point you need to accept when dudes predictions fall flat. Christians are still waiting for Jesus to come back after 2000 years. That's a dead end street.

~~jwb~~ · 11-27-2020, 04:32 AM

It's a variable, it's not the only driver. The roman empire didn't collapse because of class conflict. It collapsed for geopolitical reasons. Same with the late European colonial empires that collapsed after the world wars. Same for why America is losing ground to China as we speak.

That's another problem with Marx. He's monomaniacal. He only uses one lense.

He's definitely a prolific thinker with plenty of valid and useful critiques of capitalism. But whether you view him as a prophet or not he had a specific way of viewing history. If you wanna get down to it, Jesus and Muhammad also had some valid critiques of the systems that came before them.

OccultHawk · 11-27-2020, 06:53 AM

Plus, Rome’s over extension was heavily influenced by maintaining the lifestyles of the citizens and elite at the expense of the less fortunate which is indeed a class conflict.

~~jwb~~ · 11-27-2020, 01:18 PM

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Originally Posted by elphenor

it's like comparing Copernicus to Jesus

Marx is chapter 1 of any sociology textbook because he changed the entire model of studying the individual in relation to society

most of what he wrote is not sexy calls to action like the Manifesto it's dry critical examinations of the mechanisms of capitalism such as in Das Capital

I'm not denying his impact. I just don't think he got everything right. I'm skeptical that capitalism necessarily leads to communism. We seem further away from that reality today than we did a hundred years ago. The unions are largely destroyed. Factory work is less and less prevalent. Wherever there was pressure from class conflict and working conditions, it just leads to mild reforms which only make people more complacent and less susceptible to communist agitators.

Also, Das Kapital is incomplete. That's why the first volume only deals with dry economic theory. It was only supposed to be the first installment of a 6 volume (i think it was 6?) series. The political stuff was supposed to come later.

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Originally Posted by elphenor

the shift from absolute monarchs to feudalism to capitalism are much more macro examinations than the collapse of empires

tbf the collapse of the empire had a lot to do with the conditions that lead to medieval feudalism

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Plus, Rome’s over extension was heavily influenced by maintaining the lifestyles of the citizens and elite at the expense of the less fortunate which is indeed a class conflict.

Sure but that's the sort of monomaniacal thinking i was referring to. When all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

Is class conflict always present? Absolutely. Is it the main driving force behind all of history? I'm not as convinced. Rome's expansion had as much to do with the geopolitical conditions and the mindset of empire as it did with maintaining some sort of living conditions for the elite. The elite was perfectly wealthy under the Republic and actually had more power in many cases before the empire was created. The main reason they kept conquering barbarians was that they saw them as a threat. Turns out they were sort of right but in the wrong way.

Gutmensch · 11-28-2020, 04:55 AM

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Originally Posted by jwb

I'm not denying his impact. I just don't think he got everything right. I'm skeptical that capitalism necessarily leads to communism.

...

Of course this is dumb. But it is understandable from Marx' perspective and the situation of the 19th century.

As I told you the main problem of Marx is that he describes tendencies or relative mechanisms (which indeed exist) as determinisms, as absolute mechanisms. But we still wait for the alleged collapse of the so-called "capitalism".

19th and 20th century has shown that market economies can be regulated socially and ecologically.

Marx didn't see the potential of democracy. And this is understandable when you regard the three-class suffrage for example.

Conservatives hate Marx because he proves neoliberalism wrong. He shows where the ideology of competition and unregulated markets lead to. In a very childish way conservatives make Marx responsible for Stalinism, Maoism and so on.

But Marxists are very childish too. They idealize Marx and pray to him like a god. They celebrate a dumb fatalism, defeatism because they don't want to admit that this "world revolution" thing will never come.

By the way: We all are able to regulate our market economies by buying products which don't base on social and ecological expropriation.

I am vegetarian and buy fairtrade bananas and of course I don't buy narcissistic lifestyle products.

We all are capitalism. So we must change the capitalism in ourselves.

PS: I hope I have proven with this posting that I am a really progressive guy.

11-27-2020, 06:53 AM	#1048 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,006	Plus, Rome’s over extension was heavily influenced by maintaining the lifestyles of the citizens and elite at the expense of the less fortunate which is indeed a class conflict. __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

11-27-2020, 04:15 AM	#1046 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	I mean saying something will replace capitalism eventually is like predicting the world will end eventually. It's not much of a prediction. But Marx had specific ideas about how and why capitalism would be replaced. Which so far haven't panned out. He was literally anticipating revolution in his lifetime in countries like England, France, Germany. There were some failed attempts but no successes. He never talked about or truly anticipated countries like Russia or China leading the way. For good reason. They didn't have the necessary industrial infrastructure in place. Part of why they turned out so disastrous. But these days the formerly industrial societies are becoming deindustrialized service and gig economies. Instead of increasingly bad conditions at the workplace that leads to class consciousness and Revolution, it lead to worker reforms and unions. Which leads to complacency. This is why I don't call myself a Marxist. I'm fine with the idea of communism if it's carried out properly but at some point you need to accept when dudes predictions fall flat. Christians are still waiting for Jesus to come back after 2000 years. That's a dead end street.

11-27-2020, 04:32 AM	#1047 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	It's a variable, it's not the only driver. The roman empire didn't collapse because of class conflict. It collapsed for geopolitical reasons. Same with the late European colonial empires that collapsed after the world wars. Same for why America is losing ground to China as we speak. That's another problem with Marx. He's monomaniacal. He only uses one lense. He's definitely a prolific thinker with plenty of valid and useful critiques of capitalism. But whether you view him as a prophet or not he had a specific way of viewing history. If you wanna get down to it, Jesus and Muhammad also had some valid critiques of the systems that came before them.