Universal Basic Income or Class Warfare

Psy-Fi · 10-30-2020, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

Holy **** that's good.

Yeah, I got a chuckle out of that one.

~~jwb~~ · 10-30-2020, 10:54 AM

I'm also curious how elph thinks Marx was right that revolution which leads to communism is the inevitable result of capitalism.

He thought it was most likely to start in the most industrialized Western countries like France, England, Germany. When he wrote the manifesto in 1848 that was an overt call to revolutionary action and he was anticipating revolution in these countries within the coming decades.

There were attempts and those attempts failed. He was disappointed at this and died before any serious revolution happened that succeeded in bringing on a regime that was nominally in favor of communism.

Eventually those dreams largely fell flat with the collapse of the Soviet Union. China abandoned the planned economy.

And in the Western countries that he actually anticipated would trend towards communism naturally due to the working conditions in industrial capitalism, we saw some moderate labor reforms but other than that we're no closer to communism today than in 1848.

If anything we are deindustrializing and the very dynamic Marx thought would lead to communism is increasingly becoming less and less relevant in the wealthy capitalist countries.

We're tending towards a gig and service economy which lends much less weight to collective bargaining and unionization. So I'm failing to see how you think his predictions were right.

~~jwb~~ · 10-30-2020, 11:15 AM

I agree with the second part, and history would've gone very differently had the revolutionary Communists in Weimar Germany been the ones to take power instead of the Nazis.

But with the first point I guess I'm curious what events you think substantiate that claim.

OccultHawk · 10-30-2020, 11:33 AM

Quote:

We're tending towards a gig and service economy which lends much less weight to collective bargaining and unionization. So I'm failing to see how you think his predictions were right.

The demonstrations may have been about race but the arson looting and rioting are about class.

~~jwb~~ · 10-30-2020, 11:36 AM

I understand the theory I thought you were suggesting it's proven to be true in some regard.

Because it seems to me like he's right that there is a pendulum with regard to reforms etc but it doesn't swing as wide each time. Generally speaking the stakes for you and me are actually lower than the workers of 100 years ago. We've got more material comforts, better working conditions and are more complacent. So how is it we're moving closer to said revolution?

~~jwb~~ · 10-30-2020, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

The demonstrations may have been about race but the arson looting and rioting are about class.

First of all, no. There are race and class aspects to both but the broad appeal that lead to the protests which lead to the riots was about race. And it was also just a perfect environment to create such a movement with everyone going crazy from the Covid lockdowns

Second of all, I'm not saying capitalism won't have civil unrest etc pop up. We're talking about the inevitable revolution that has yet to come.

OccultHawk · 10-30-2020, 11:43 AM

Ain’t nobody know the future but the internet brings into focus how the 1% live and also gives a broader voice the average pissed off poor person. It’s hard to say. The wealth gap is hella ****ing nuts though. People hate them some billionaires. Not everyone but I mean it’s a thing.

OccultHawk · 10-30-2020, 11:48 AM

Quote:

There are race and class aspects to both but the broad appeal that lead to the protests which lead to the riots was about race.

I really believe that the flames were set by communists and anarchists whose target is capitalism and not white supremacy but that can’t be proven so...

That core in Portland. They hate the **** out of capitalism.

SGR · 10-30-2020, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Ain’t nobody know the future but the internet brings into focus how the 1% live and also gives a broader voice the average pissed off poor person. It’s hard to say. The wealth gap is hella ****ing nuts though. People hate them some billionaires. Not everyone but I mean it’s a thing.

The internet also placates people who otherwise may be very pissed off and vocal about it. Instead of revolting, they're watching Netflix, endlessly scrolling through social media, or jerking off.

As long as the attention of the masses is constantly diverted, they'll never have the focus to see how royally they're being screwed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

That core in Portland. They hate the **** out of capitalism.

Do they really though? They looked like a bunch of LARPers to me, as they record the mayhem with the latest iPhone model and upload it to their social media timeline.

OccultHawk · 10-30-2020, 12:54 PM

Quote:

The internet also placates people who otherwise may be very pissed off and vocal about it.

Yeah. We’ll see how it goes.

Quote:

Do they really though? They looked like a bunch of LARPers to me, as they record the mayhem with the latest iPhone model and upload it to their social media timeline.

They’ve been at it for 7 months. That’s a long ****ing time to be facing off with the police every night. Role playing is like when you don’t get beat up, thrown in vans, arrested, and gassed. I respect it and I respect how they built on occupy and I respect that they’re learning from this as well. They’re a small glimmer of hope.

10-30-2020, 10:54 AM	#1002 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	I'm also curious how elph thinks Marx was right that revolution which leads to communism is the inevitable result of capitalism. He thought it was most likely to start in the most industrialized Western countries like France, England, Germany. When he wrote the manifesto in 1848 that was an overt call to revolutionary action and he was anticipating revolution in these countries within the coming decades. There were attempts and those attempts failed. He was disappointed at this and died before any serious revolution happened that succeeded in bringing on a regime that was nominally in favor of communism. Eventually those dreams largely fell flat with the collapse of the Soviet Union. China abandoned the planned economy. And in the Western countries that he actually anticipated would trend towards communism naturally due to the working conditions in industrial capitalism, we saw some moderate labor reforms but other than that we're no closer to communism today than in 1848. If anything we are deindustrializing and the very dynamic Marx thought would lead to communism is increasingly becoming less and less relevant in the wealthy capitalist countries. We're tending towards a gig and service economy which lends much less weight to collective bargaining and unionization. So I'm failing to see how you think his predictions were right. Last edited by jwb; 10-30-2020 at 11:00 AM.

10-30-2020, 11:43 AM	#1007 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,006	Ain’t nobody know the future but the internet brings into focus how the 1% live and also gives a broader voice the average pissed off poor person. It’s hard to say. The wealth gap is hella ****ing nuts though. People hate them some billionaires. Not everyone but I mean it’s a thing. __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

10-30-2020, 11:15 AM	#1003 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	I agree with the second part, and history would've gone very differently had the revolutionary Communists in Weimar Germany been the ones to take power instead of the Nazis. But with the first point I guess I'm curious what events you think substantiate that claim.

10-30-2020, 11:36 AM	#1005 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	I understand the theory I thought you were suggesting it's proven to be true in some regard. Because it seems to me like he's right that there is a pendulum with regard to reforms etc but it doesn't swing as wide each time. Generally speaking the stakes for you and me are actually lower than the workers of 100 years ago. We've got more material comforts, better working conditions and are more complacent. So how is it we're moving closer to said revolution?