Universal Basic Income or Class Warfare

SGR · 10-30-2020, 09:59 AM

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Originally Posted by elphenor

I don't think left-authoritarianism is a real ideology just like right libertariansm is a fake ideology

Tell that to the people who died in the Holodomor.

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Originally Posted by Frownland

I think the biggest risk of authoritarianism in the left can come from counterauthoritarian efforts evolving into authoritarianism by assuming the position they were fighting instead of adapting it.

I could be wrong, but I think it's been pretty common practice after communist revolutions to 'purge' many of the revolutionaries who brought upon the revolution. If they were willing to revolt against the former state, they can't be trusted to not revolt against the new state.

SGR · 10-30-2020, 10:08 AM

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Originally Posted by elphenor

typically huge swings to the left are followed by reactionary Authoritarianism

Animal Farm and all that, it's a known problem for those on the revolutionary left

Right - all I'm saying is that, though it may not be that in its utopian form as envisioned by Marx/Engels, authoritarianism can't be conveniently disassociated from the left by idealistic leftists.

'Communist' revolutions get stuck in the 'Dictatorship of the Proletariat' stage and never reach communism.

**Frownland** · 10-30-2020, 10:09 AM

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Originally Posted by Frownland

You do realize that der left isn't a monolithic block right

.

OccultHawk · 10-30-2020, 10:10 AM

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Originally Posted by jwb

Should be done away with. In practice it's already functionally irrelevant. There hasn't been a draft since Vietnam and it's hard to imagine creating the political will to bring it back without us being in a WW3 type scenario. In which case, we have bigger problems than discrimination in the military.

A lot of neoliberals support mandatory Americorp type bull****

Or at least I think they support that slave ****

I could see it making a comeback in some form

Plus I’ve heard “leftists” support a draft since only poor people “volunteer”

On the other hand I wouldn’t mind an optional federal jobs program for anyone who wants a job that pays a living wage. Seems viable with all the green energy needs we have and our ****ed up infrastructure. There’s lots of **** to do.

Haven’t thought that much about it though since what I really want is to just be given money for doing nothing at all. When I hear that people want to work rhetoric I always think dafuq. But lately I feel so isolated. The ****ing thing was my restaurant job was actually almost tenable before covid. Boohoo I know but I was chilling with tunes all day they people were cool the tasks were varied. Tons of great free food.

It was physically brutal and had real drawbacks but compared to teaching you know I was almost getting happy.

**** I get off topic.

SGR · 10-30-2020, 10:18 AM

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Originally Posted by elphenor

well it can and can't

essentially what it means to be right or left comes down to your stance on Authority vs. Democracy

in theory

in practice some people will call themselves left and be quite authoritarian

Eh, I don't know if I buy it, even in theory. If someone subscribes to every single prescription of Marx/Engels, but wants the state to do it, they're a right-winger?

I think the spectrum of political leanings is more nuanced than that and is better explained by the traditional political compass, that I'm sure you're familiar with.

OccultHawk · 10-30-2020, 10:20 AM

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Originally Posted by SoundgardenRocks

Right - all I'm saying is that, though it may not be that in its utopian form as envisioned by Marx/Engels, authoritarianism can't be conveniently disassociated from the left by idealistic leftists.

'Communist' revolutions get stuck in the 'Dictatorship of the Proletariat' stage and never reach communism.

Honestly I think the absolute brutality it would take to really redistribute the wealth isn’t something the left as it pretends to be in this day in age isn’t really willing to look at. People don’t give up their **** without a fight. A lot of people would have to die to get it done. That’s why I won’t **** talk Mao and Stalin. With the income disparity we have now it would take a lot more than that. It’s not going to be like just Chomsky giving lectures and ****. Call it fascism or whatever but like Steve Miller says on Jetliner you got to go though hell before you get to heaven.

SGR · 10-30-2020, 10:26 AM

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Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Honestly I think the absolute brutality it would take to really redistribute the wealth isn’t something the left as it pretends to be in this day in age isn’t really willing to look at. People don’t give up their **** without a fight. A lot of people would have to die to get it done.

And that's the rub, isn't it?

The ideas of Marx/Engels might work great for a small willing commune, but in practice across a large country, you need a lot of political will and a lot of guns to get it done.

You can slowly boil people by raising their taxes, but it usually gets to a point where folks will eventually balk. You'll never get communism this way, the best you can hope for is Socialism.

OccultHawk · 10-30-2020, 10:46 AM

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Originally Posted by elphenor

yeah I think that that graph is bunk

theres not 4 quadrants it's just a line

most sociologists believe Marx/Engels prescription

whether you want the state to "do it" or some kind of anarchic vision is the difference between Trotsky and Stalin

Left and Right

Even though I don’t agree I respect your lack of nuance!

SGR · 10-30-2020, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

yeah I think that that graph is bunk

theres not 4 quadrants it's just a line

most sociologists believe Marx/Engels prescription

whether you want the state to "do it" or some kind of anarchic vision is the difference between Trotsky and Stalin

Left and Right

So Stalin was a right-winger in your eyes? And Stalinism is a right-wing ideology?

SGR · 10-30-2020, 10:57 AM

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Originally Posted by elphenor

Some misunderstanding of Marx here

Marx/Engels didn't write instruction manuals for a better world or even invent the idea of socialism

the Communist Manifesto is their political document but it's less important compared to their broader contribution to sociology I think

I realize it wasn't an instruction manual - if it was, there wouldn't have been so many revolutionaries who ****ed it up. It presented a vision and served as a call to action. There are ideas in the document that can be implemented.

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Originally Posted by elphenor

holy **** yes

the reason we today associate Russia under Stalin with communism is because the 2 major powers of the Cold War were both invested in having their populations believe it

it's the greatest propaganda campaign the world has ever known

All the right-wing people I talk to tell me that Hitler was a left-winger and that the effort to paint him as a right-winger is part of a broad propaganda campaign. I don't know who to believe.