Jordan Peterson - Get a damn hoover, ey.

DwnWthVwls · 06-25-2018, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Public reliance is definitely something the government thinks its owed. If citizens don’t get their welfare they go hungry. If the government doesn’t get their welfare (taxes) they put their citizens in prisons. Who’s really acting entitled?

Both need improvement. The point of my criticisms is to say what people can do to improve their situation despite a government that sucks, not pointing fingers and accomplish nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

again instead of blaming it on some vague psychological state,

why don't we consider that, for example, it is objectively harder for the generation reaching college age to afford it than the previous generation, or that the cost of living is objectively harder to manage given inflation and stagnant wages or that objectively life expectancy is declining for the first time since the 1960's etc.

these seem much more tangible reasons for the feeling of hopelessness in those under 35

you seem a reasonable scientific minded person, why don't you apply that intellectual integrity in the realm of public policy?

I haven't seen the stats on that, but I'm okay agreeing. Let's say that's true, if the government isn't doing anything about it what can we do to make it better on ourselves besides taking more responsibility for our actions? I don't see what complaining and being helpless accomplishes. If we know the government is going to **** us out of healthcare don't you think it's in your best interest to try and do as few things that put your health at risk as possible?

Idk how to apply scientific reasoning to public policy tbh. I form opinions based on my best understanding of how people can improve their situation even with a dysfunctional/corrupt government. It's very hard to analyze statistics in the social realm because 1) there are SOOO many variables and 2) if people don't like the stats, no matter how well they were performed, it typically leads to some sort of race baiting dialogue or social justice point of contention.. People don't even like hearing facts in science if they don't like what it means, they certainly don't want their opinions countered by social statistics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

no government = no protection for private property

yes people would work it out, what causes poverty to begin with in countries as wealthy as the US is private concentration of wealth

but if you mean just cut the social safety net, that doesn't work at all predictably, because poverty exists independent of the measures taken to address it

Private concentration of wealth... and a multitude of other factors. I'm not saying cut the social safety net, that would be awful. I'm saying it is in the best interest of society to wake the **** up and be more responsible which will go a long way in reducing the problems we have and help to reduce government strain so maybe they can be more effective.

The Batlord · 06-25-2018, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

government reliance is not something people think they are owed.

Why not? We were brought into this world without our consent by a society that has children simply because it's instinctual, and then we're expected to show loyalty to our species and be productive members of society regardless of our own wants and needs. I'd say that any culture that acts in such a way does in fact owe the people it brings into the world for no other reason than because it wants to make more people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I'm saying it is in the best interest of society to wake the **** up and be more responsible which will go a long way in reducing the problems we have and help to reduce government strain so maybe they can be more effective.

So human psychology needs to change? You think that's reasonable? Our psyches have been developed over millions of years and no amount of bootstrap logic is going to change how the human race functions. Certain individuals might be able to pull themselves up but human history has shown for thousands of years that the natural state of most societies is poverty.

OccultHawk · 06-25-2018, 05:23 PM

Misfortune can fall upon anyone.

If you’re reading this the safety net is for you too.

Maybe you won’t fall but if you do how hard do you want the landing to be?

I want a nice soft landing personally.

DwnWthVwls · 06-25-2018, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Why not? We were brought into this world without our consent by a society that has children simply because it's instinctual, and then we're expected to show loyalty to our species and be productive members of society regardless of our own wants and needs. I'd say that any culture that acts in such a way does in fact owe the people it brings into the world for no other reason than because it wants to make more people.

We do more to harm ourselves and each other than any government ever has (minus some extreme examples). If you don't want to be a participating member of society, than work to create a society you'd like to participate in or gtfo. I'm not saying the government shouldn't give a **** about people and offer social safety nets, I'm saying it's pretty obvious that their are limitations on what it can do and approaching life with the attitude that they owe you is awful. That mentality puts major strain on what it can offer because it helps create an atmosphere of people who think they can just repeatedly **** up and be bailed out by the government, it's just not realistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

So human psychology needs to change? You think that's reasonable? Our psyches have been developed over millions of years and no amount of bootstrap logic is going to change how the human race functions. Certain individuals might be able to pull themselves up but human history has shown for thousands of years that the natural state of most societies is poverty.

Yes. Modern social systems and the ways we think and interact are significantly different than they have been in the very recent past. Do you think it's reasonable to hold the position, "o well, we've done enough, let's just stop trying to improve"? What are you, anti-everyonegetsatrophy until the game is life? I'm not expecting it to happen over night, but all you have to do is look at the history of black america to understand that we can improve on the human condition. Better yet look at the influence of social media and the internet on the human psyche. People need to put in more work and educate themselves. There are a multitude of things that can be fixed without relying on the government, and I'm not going to sit here and blame big brother because people are unwilling to make a personal effort to fix them.

OccultHawk · 06-25-2018, 06:54 PM

Quote:

all you have to do is look at the history of black america to understand that we can improve on the human condition

Congrats to American blacks. You’ve fought hard for over three centuries and you’ve finally moved from the plantations to the prisons.

The Batlord · 06-25-2018, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

We do more to harm ourselves and each other than any government ever has (minus some extreme examples). If you don't want to be a participating member of society, than work to create a society you'd like to participate in or gtfo.

And go where? Go back to Africa? Go live in Russia? What exactly are my alternatives?

Quote:

I'm not saying the government shouldn't give a **** about people and offer social safety nets, I'm saying it's pretty obvious that their are limitations on what it can do and approaching life with the attitude that they owe you is awful. That mentality puts major strain on what it can offer because it helps create an atmosphere of people who think they can just repeatedly **** up and be bailed out by the government, it's just not realistic.

Whether or not it's psychologically healthy is another issue. My point is that in general nobody has the right to expect anything from anyone, unless it's the society that forced them into existence. That society (and your parents obviously) is entirely responsible for you being put into the situation you were in at birth.

Quote:

Yes. Modern social systems and the ways we think and interact are significantly different than they have been in the very recent past. Do you think it's reasonable to hold the position, "o well, we've done enough, let's just stop trying to improve"? What are you, anti-everyonegetsatrophy until the game is life? I'm not expecting it to happen over night, but all you have to do is look at the history of black america to understand that we can improve on the human condition. Better yet look at the influence of social media and the internet on the human psyche. People need to put in more work and educate themselves. There are a multitude of things that can be fixed without relying on the government, and I'm not going to sit here and blame big brother because people are unwilling to make a personal effort to fix them.

They certainly provide different stimuli to affect the development of our psychology, but I think the last couple hundred years of democracy has shown that by and large we still treat democracy like a monarchy. We want our president/king to lead us and make us feel safe, we want our legislature/nobility to run our lives for us while being less important than the president/king, and we want to let all this happen on the periphery of our awareness so we can go about our daily lives without all the complications of running a country.

We have not fundamentally changed. Such sweeping changes to human psychology are going to take hundreds, perhaps even thousands of years, meanwhile we're stuck here wondering how divine right has left us with such meh kings. And I doubt that the communal living structure of city life -- where we don't grow our own food, require supermarkets to obtain the food we didn't grow, don't build our own houses, send our children to a government building for hours a day, rely on utilities provided by either the government or corporations, etc etc etc -- is going to be conducive to teaching us to be more self-reliant. If you want that then you need to provide the correct stimuli to push us in that direction, which I do not believe currently exists or will exist without a radical restructuring of human society.

06-25-2018, 05:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,006	Misfortune can fall upon anyone. If you’re reading this the safety net is for you too. Maybe you won’t fall but if you do how hard do you want the landing to be? I want a nice soft landing personally. __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html