Political Discussions for "Adults"

DwnWthVwls · 07-13-2017, 04:45 AM

Elph, Chula, and Anteater not welcome..

A place void of logical fallacy, lack of nuance (there most be a word for this, but damn my small vocabulary), rose-tinted glasses, hyperbolic statements, and uninformed opinions.

Begin.

Zhanteimi · 07-13-2017, 05:35 AM

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The Batlord · 07-13-2017, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mord

I am of the opinion that ambition should automatically disqualify someone from running for public office. If you're getting into politics because you want to become rich or powerful, you're automatically disqualified. If you come from a rich or political family with a long history of involvement in politics, you are banned from running for any public office.

So who steps up? Well, I hope it's someone who actually wants to provide leadership and help to his/her nation/constituency. Not just hold office to get rich or seize power.

What if no one steps up? Well, then we have a random drawing. Sorry, Farmer John! Looks like you and Plumber Ralph are running for president. Get your campaigns up and running!

Not actually supporting the idea, but for years I've been curious about a legalized political class (a new aristocracy basically) of people trained to govern from childhood through a standardized curriculum. Obviously this is not an idea to be promoted as is, but since people in general have proven that they are incompetent at voting or knowing what's in their own best interest I'm dubious that they should be given so much power as they already have.

I guess something like a revamped Roman Republic, with a patrician class governing and a lower legislative body of Tribunes representing the masses to keep them in check. I'm obviously dubious if it's even possible to implement and maintain such a body in modern times, but at the very least I'd like for alternatives or revisions to democracy to be explored. I mean it's not like we aren't already ruled by a patrician class, but at least this one would go to school for it.

DwnWthVwls · 07-13-2017, 10:43 AM

@Mord - That seems absurd. You can't reasonably prove ambition, and even if you could that's some pretty serious discrimination. Do you really believe that or are you just blowing off steam?

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

Dwn you know basically **** all about politics though and as a result your opinions are entirely feeling based at best

And then just woefully misinformed otherwise

It's funny cause the bolded is correct, and yet instead of dismantling any argument I put forward you ignore my questions or provide strawman answers.. back on topic please, Mord posted an interesting opening discussion. You can see yourself out.

DwnWthVwls · 07-13-2017, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I want to hear more about how poverty is a state of mind Mr. Carson

it will all make us feel nice and warm inside

That wasn't even the point of my argument. You really will make an excellent, terrible politician/policy writer/whatever. But hey, at least you'll be maintaining the status quo.

The Batlord · 07-13-2017, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

That wasn't even the point of my argument. You really will make an excellent, terrible politician/policy writer/whatever. But hey, at least you'll be maintaining the status quo.

*psst*

You're about to ruin your own thread.

Zhanteimi · 07-13-2017, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

@Mord - That seems absurd. You can't reasonably prove ambition, and even if you could that's some pretty serious discrimination. Do you really believe that or are you just blowing off steam?

I really believe that. Revolutionary ideas often sound absurd.

I believe the best political system would be a representative democracy in which the politicians are average joes who, when their term is up, return to their old, private lives.

DwnWthVwls · 07-13-2017, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mord

I really believe that. Revolutionary ideas often sound absurd.

I believe the best political system would be a representative democracy in which the politicians are average joes who, when their term is up, return to their old, private lives.

I support the idea in theory but in reality, people are generally ****ing clueless about politics, economics, foreign policy, and war.. We would require an incredible educational leap to even scratch the surface of considering such an idea. The average person, myself included, does not have the understanding of how free healthcare will impact the economy in the long and short term, and although economists get it wrong they at least have the skill set to assess why they were incorrect and move forward (it's impossible to always be certain). A majority of society just puppets the narrative that is shoved down their throat from whatever news sources they align with and flaunt their pseudo-understanding of how America functions.

Let's be honest the broadness of informed decisions we expect our politicians to make are beyond the expectations of even the most intelligent people. You really need to be thoroughly educated on such a wide variety of topics it's absurd. I've always been fond of the idea of a collective of POTUS status officials each specialized in a field that collectively make decisions.. I haven't thought much about how it would function but it seems likely to result in much better decision making assuming it's not corrupt.

They can each of course have a variety of advisors below them.. but a round table of sorts consisting of a few scientists, economist, diplomat, some sort of high end general, etc. Also, they can't be religious because anyone who believes in god without evidence is not capable in making evidence based decisions in at least one aspect of their life, and I'd rather not leave it up to them to decide when it is and isn't appropriate to use faith based decision making.

Zhanteimi · 07-13-2017, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I support the idea in theory but in reality, people are generally ****ing clueless about politics, economics, foreign policy, and war.

You're right. So I would start with education and making sure every citizen is educated, informed, and conversant on topics important to their nation. Kind of like a civics course that starts in elementary school and proceeds through high school. Like, say, start with some kind of basics civics class in third grade, and every year have a civics class be mandatory. Each year the class becomes more advanced. Along the way, the students not only learn government but are also kept apprised of current political, economic, and social issues.

This may seem like a lot, but as a father of many children who have excelled in school, I know what young people's minds are capable of if you challenge them.

We could, if we really wanted to, produce a well-informed and -educated citizenry, so that even Farmer John or Plumber Ralph, when called upon by their country to serve their term, could do so competently.

The problem is, as Batlord pointed out, the patrician class would never allow such a thing to ever come about. Hell, they control education in such a way that the average joe cannot even conceive of this.

OccultHawk · 07-13-2017, 05:09 PM

Quote:

We could, if we really wanted to, produce a well-informed and -educated citizenry, so that even Farmer John or Plumber Ralph, when called upon by their country to serve their term, could do so competently.

Farming takes a huge amount of education and time. Many occupations demand intense specialization. Time spent learning civics is time lost learning whatever else. Your kids might be obedient and smart and committed to a certain type of liberal education but that's not only a byproduct of your careful nurturing but there's also a good chunk of genetic predisposition that goes into it. Nothing is right for everyone.

On the other hand, it still could very easily be better than the hell we're living in.

07-13-2017, 05:35 AM	#2 (permalink)
Zhanteimi Mord Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Tokyo Posts: 4,873	. __________________ Zhanteimi LetsTalkMusic Last edited by Zhanteimi; 04-30-2018 at 07:05 PM.

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