Political Discussions for "Adults"

Oriphiel · 08-05-2018, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I won't say ignorant, but very curious why you would ignore the rampant exploitation from the colonial powers following the Open Door Policy

the humiliation they suffered lead them to retaliate with more isolationist policy

it was only when China had put itself in a favorable position (with very heavy central planning that still continues) that Capitalist reforms could pay off

I didn't ignore it. I actually mentioned it. Kinda like how I mentioned that it was the isolationism and deemphasis on trade and science during the Ming (an abandonment of Mercantilism) that lead to China falling behind the rest of the world, and thus being bullied by European powers during the Qing.

I've already gone over this and provided examples of how turning away from Marcantilism and free trade has always ****ed China over historically.

Fun fact: The vast majority of the steel that Mao famously forced farmers to make in lieu of planting crops ended up being too flawed for actual use. The Mao years may seem like a productive time on the surface level, but pretty much every "accomplishment" of his was actually a massive failure with a PR propaganda spin.

Communist China had a fraction of the relative power and influence it had during the Qin, Han, Tang, etc., and was already modernizing during the pre-Communist Republic years. If anything, most historians agree that Mao actually slowed progress down through his constant blunders and massive wasting of resources.

But hey, maybe the books I read in college were biased. It happens. If you have any books with dissenting opinions that you think might change my mind, I'd be happy to check them out. I love learning more about Chinese history.

Oriphiel · 08-05-2018, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

his greater legacy is in the restructuring of China, I don't think it's a given that China's modernization would be similar without him, or that they'd have the same place in the world

Why not? The Republic loyalists that fled to Taiwan turned it into an economic powerhouse with a high quality of life that was only eventually eclipsed by the mainland due to its tiny size and population. In the end, I think Sun Yat Sen's ideas and legacy were more pivotal in modernizing China, even if the Republic he led technically didn't survive. To this day, even the die hard Marxists have tremendous respect for him and his influence, maybe even more so than Mao.

DwnWthVwls · 08-06-2018, 04:08 AM

I'm learning. Keep arguing.

The Batlord · 08-06-2018, 05:44 PM

Curious if elph will come anywhere close to admitting he doesn't really know what he's talking about.

OccultHawk · 08-06-2018, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Curious if elph will come anywhere close to admitting he doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Quote:

The "periods of great power" all coincide with Mercantilist policies and free trade. Saying that Mao/Communism put China ahead is very ignorant of Chinese history.

For 2000 years, at least, there was no hope for around 90% of the population whose lives were slavery start to finish. Beneath current African subsistence farming by far. Kingdoms came and went and wars were won and lost but the basic fact of life was that the vast majority was owned through all kinds of crazy debts and rents in an inescapable generational endless cycle of horrible economic oppression until the Red Guards exploded a destroyed the whole ****ing ****hole except for what Mao could preserve for himself. The Great Leap Forward was a disgusting cluster**** but it reorganized things that opened the gate for one of the most nihilistic hate **** civil rights movements the world has ever known. And they were inspired by Mao for whatever ****ing reason.

China’s still a ****ing mess but there is social mobility and growing middle class. It had to go down hard and nasty to break that kind of entrenched oppression. ****ing centuries of chains they had to remove. That **** wasn’t going to just happen. The power structure had to be decimated. The Red Guard were bad ass as ****. I wish we had those kinds of balls. Tear this **** house the **** down.

CIVIL WAR II BITCHES

Oriphiel · 08-07-2018, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

For 2000 years, at least, there was no hope for around 90% of the population whose lives were slavery start to finish. Beneath current African subsistence farming by far. Kingdoms came and went and wars were won and lost but the basic fact of life was that the vast majority was owned through all kinds of crazy debts and rents in an inescapable generational endless cycle of horrible economic oppression until the Red Guards exploded a destroyed the whole ****ing ****hole except for what Mao could preserve for himself. The Great Leap Forward was a disgusting cluster**** but it reorganized things that opened the gate for one of the most nihilistic hate **** civil rights movements the world has ever known. And they were inspired by Mao for whatever ****ing reason.

China’s still a ****ing mess but there is social mobility and growing middle class. It had to go down hard and nasty to break that kind of entrenched oppression. ****ing centuries of chains they had to remove. That **** wasn’t going to just happen. The power structure had to be decimated. The Red Guard were bad ass as ****. I wish we had those kinds of balls. Tear this **** house the **** down.

CIVIL WAR II BITCHES

Quality of life and social mobility were increasing during the modernization of the Republic period, a growth that was ultimately slowed down by the Communist regime, as evinced by the tremendous success of Taiwan (led by the surviving Republic loyalists). And historical records have shown the correlation between Mercantilist periods (Han, Tang, etc.) and their connection to a growing middle class of merchants, artisans, and skilled laborers.

So please stop with the boring broad strokes about China being a nation of slaves. Virtually every large country has had the same social progression. For example, India, a nation that imo has had an even darker social history than China.

Japan went through the same caste system bull**** and got two ****ing atomic bombs dropped on them, and yet after surviving WWII, after American advisors injected Capitalist steroids into their balls, they busted out as an economic and technological world power that utterly kicked the **** of China in every way, esp. quality of life. They were high fiving robots and **** while 99% of China was wondering if the human body could subsist on dirt.

Psy-Fi · 08-07-2018, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Curious if elph will come anywhere close to admitting he doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

Quality of life and social mobility were increasing during the modernization of the Republic period, a growth that was ultimately slowed down by the Communist regime, as evinced by the tremendous success of Taiwan (led by the surviving Republic loyalists). And historical records have shown the correlation between Mercantilist periods (Han, Tang, etc.) and their connection to a growing middle class of merchants, artisans, and skilled laborers.

So please stop with the boring broad strokes about China being a nation of slaves. Virtually every large country has had the same social progression. For example, India, a nation that imo has had an even darker social history than China.

Japan went through the same caste system bull**** and got two ****ing atomic bombs dropped on them, and yet after surviving WWII, after American advisors injected Capitalist steroids into their balls, they busted out as an economic and technological world power that utterly kicked the **** of China in every way, esp. quality of life. They were high fiving robots and **** while 99% of China was wondering if the human body could subsist on dirt.

.

OccultHawk · 08-07-2018, 07:29 AM

Quote:

please stop with the boring broad strokes about China being a nation of slaves

serfs peasants whatever

people who toiled for others until they dropped dead on the job

Pointing to Hong Kong and Taiwan and saying see is the obvious rebuttal

I explain that by saying that America was the only industrial power that wasn’t decimated in WWII so America had the whole world by the economic balls. So yeah, little bitch butt-buddy countries like Taiwan took off. If Japan hadn’t gotten on our radar by bombing Pearl Harbor they’d just be another Bangladesh. But as we fall they fall because the endless expansionism of capitalism is a dead end simply because the world is finite. China’s going up and we’re going down. China also has some potential to mold a sustainable model and enjoys the advantage of not being a democracy.

Oriphiel · 08-07-2018, 07:39 AM

Tbh, China is more Capitalist than the U.S. Has been ever since the years following Mao, when they realized they needed to get their **** together if they wanted to play with the big boys. An explosion of commerce with very little government regulation. All the gov gives a **** about is getting their cut, and making political rivals disappear, environment be damned. Only very recently have they shown any real interest in conservation, and they're still notorious for just bulldozing forests and old ruins for the giggles.

China is America on crack right now. It's just one big Florida.

Basically, the very thing you claim to despise. Goof probably jerks off to their economic model every morning.

~~MicShazam~~ · 08-07-2018, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

Tbh, China is more Capitalist than the U.S. Has been ever since the years following Mao, when they realized they needed to get their **** together if they wanted to play with the big boys. An explosion of commerce with very little government regulation. All the gov gives a **** about is getting their cut, and making political rivals disappear, environment be damned. Only very recently have they shown any real interest in conservation, and they're still notorious for just bulldozing forests and old ruins for the giggles.

China is America on crack right now. It's just one big Florida.

Basically, the very thing you claim to despise. Goof probably jerks off to their economic model every morning.

So would you say they should change the name of the Florida state to Little China?

08-07-2018, 07:39 AM	#969 (permalink)
Oriphiel Ask me how! Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: The States Posts: 5,354	Tbh, China is more Capitalist than the U.S. Has been ever since the years following Mao, when they realized they needed to get their ** together if they wanted to play with the big boys. An explosion of commerce with very little government regulation. All the gov gives a ** about is getting their cut, and making political rivals disappear, environment be damned. Only very recently have they shown any real interest in conservation, and they're still notorious for just bulldozing forests and old ruins for the giggles. China is America on crack right now. It's just one big Florida. Basically, the very thing you claim to despise. Goof probably jerks off to their economic model every morning. __________________ ---------------------- \|---Mic's Albums---\| ---------------------- ----------------------------- \|---Deafbox Industries---\| -----------------------------