Political Discussions for "Adults"

~~Cuthbert~~ · 08-04-2018, 04:08 PM

I like the last two posts.

~~MicShazam~~ · 08-04-2018, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

forgetting all the other negatives

capitalism is destroying the environment, accelerating climate change, and will drive humanity to near extinction if not heavily altered

I can not think of a higher level in which it could be a failure

No, you're right.

The goal of capitalism is not to advance technology and make life more comfortable (a common pro-capitalism argument). The goal is to generate capital. Whatever has to be trampled and burned down in the process is expendable.

Lucem Ferre · 08-04-2018, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

forgetting all the other negatives

capitalism is destroying the environment, accelerating climate change, and will drive humanity to near extinction if not heavily altered

I can not think of a higher level in which it could be a failure

Didn't think of that.

It's also a cause for plenty of war.

Also, have you ever stepped on a lego? Capitalism. Think about it.

Edit: Oh, wait, I'm supposed to be an adult about it, huh?

Lucem Ferre · 08-04-2018, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

they all considered themselves Marxists

but Marxism isn't necessarily something to be implemented, for certain not in a top down way, and not in a society that still possesses nation states

theory was that a developed country would revolt and the rest of the world would follow suit, Marx suggested it would be Germany

dictators in one state socialism would justify it by saying it was the beginning of the worldwide revolt and that their dictatorship was the transition period

This is exactly what seems so stupid about anti-Marxist propaganda to me. The basic concept doesn't inherently mean a Marxist supports socialism or communism it seems more geared toward being against capitalism. How to replace it doesn't seem fairly agreed upon. The reason why there's a rise of Marxism in the US is because people are starting to realize the flaws of our capitalist society.

Edit: And there are so many differing shades of grey in the Marxist ideology that to really paint them all as one shade like a hidden army trying to overthrow our government is really disingenuous. Just seems like blatant fear mongering to silence those who may challenge right wing politics. The same way our government tried to slander the hippie movement for opposing the war.

Edit again: So it seems more like these dictators wore exploiting Marxism.

DwnWthVwls · 08-04-2018, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

lol William F Buckley

great example of a well educated dumbass

devout catholic too who complained about a supposed "war on religion" in the US

wrote a book defending McCarthyism, I mean you can't make this stuff up

Yeah im not a fan but his show had some great guests and civil discussions. Its a pleasure to watch on occasion compared to modern discourse and many of the topics are still relevant.

DwnWthVwls · 08-04-2018, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mindfulness

but but but..

those are youtube videos.. maybe create a youtube video thread for your videos Down with vowels

Thats not my name!

Anteater · 08-04-2018, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

then Mao's marxism in China was much more a story of a reaction to imperialism

You could argue he had good intentions but the end result was still awful.

I'm personally not for or against a Marxist system. But societies are made up of individuals, and individual wants and needs will always push society into a more capitalistic direction unless a "power" (government, military, law enforcement, etc.) decides to stomp them out. The question would be how individuals would be punished for going against the grain in any Marxist scenario, because there are plenty of possibilities.

Oriphiel · 08-04-2018, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

the end result is nobody scoffs at China anymore on the global market

not saying Mao was justified, no such thing as a good dictator or a good dictatorship

it's just worth considering prior to Mao people in China were already starving if they didn't get murdered by the Japanese, capitalism never did them any favors

capitalism benefits those at the top whether that's people or nations

China has been Mercantilist throughout most of its history, with much of that history spent as one of the dominant nations of the world. The White Lotus rebelllion (which killed almost as many people as the combined fatalities of WWII) that started the Ming dynasty decimated the population, and the extreme conservative policies and de-emphasis on international trade shifted China away from Mercantilism, and set them behind the rest of the world, leading to bullying from other world powers (esp. Britain).

Japan, being much more open to modernization and Mercantilism in the post Tokugawa years, dealt some heavy blows to China early on in the occupation, but China had been catching up in the post Qing years as a Republic, and ultimately put up more of a fight than Japan expected, esp. when the warlord/generals and the Communists teamed up to mount an extensive defense.

When Mao pushed the Republic to Taiwan, he destroyed China's infrastructure and economy (not to mention culture with the Great Leap Forward), leading to a drastic decline in the average quality of life compared to the Republic years, and even the late Qing.

China only returned to its position as a proper world power when Mao died, and subsequent leaders turned the nation back to Mercantilism.

China has had some extreme highs and lows, the highs usually coinciding with periods of open trade and an emphasis on Capitalism (Han and Tang dynasties being the prime examples), and the lows coinciding with conservative policies, a lack of free trade, and foreign occupation (Early Marxist years and the Yuan dynasty are examples of this, and the Jin following the Three Kingdoms Era).

Sorry if there are any errors. I'm typing this off the top of my head on my phone.

Oriphiel · 08-04-2018, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

Mao industrialized China without which it could not compete

and you're right China had periods of great power

Was already being industrialized during the Republic period. Like I said, similar to how Japan modernized in the Meiji Restoration, China was heading in the same direction, only they had less of a headstart since the Republic started around 1912 iirc, while the Meiji was late 1800s (again, off the top of my head and on my phone).

Most Sino historians agree that Mao set China back considerably. Only the increasingly Capitalist policies following his death brought China back to where it was.

The "periods of great power" all coincide with Mercantilist policies and free trade. Saying that Mao/Communism put China ahead is very ignorant of Chinese history.

DwnWthVwls · 08-05-2018, 08:42 AM

Elph is still thinking about a really clever one sentence retort.

08-04-2018, 04:08 PM	#951 (permalink)
~~Cuthbert~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Black Country Posts: 8,827	I like the last two posts.