Political Discussions for "Adults"

~~jwb~~ · 09-04-2021, 09:52 PM

How would ones takes not be coloured by their politics? What a meaningless accusation.

And the fact that you would accept anything as long as we get out is just what i mean by mediocrity. Really says it all. I believe you when you say you're amazed at how well he's doing and i hope you believe me when i say I'm amazed at how low tire standards are.

TheBig3 · 09-04-2021, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

How would ones takes not be coloured by their politics? What a meaningless accusation.

Maybe to you. I can agree with decisions I don't like. I have my political opinions, and I can also be objective.

Quote:

And the fact that you would accept anything as long as we get out is just what i mean by mediocrity.

But I'm telling you, if you'd bother reading, that it's not "anything" - I'm telling you he's doing better than any one else we've seen on the job in several area.

Quote:

Really says it all. I believe you when you say you're amazed at how well he's doing and i hope you believe me when i say I'm amazed at how low tire standards are.

No this is really a national tragedy.

~~jwb~~ · 09-04-2021, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3

Maybe to you. I can agree with decisions I don't like. I have my political opinions, and I can also be objective.

the closest any person could get to being truly objective would be to realize how meaningless it is to say your takes are colored by your politics as if there's any alternative. If you think otherwise then you just think too much of your own supposed objectivity.

Quote:

But I'm telling you, if you'd bother reading, that it's not "anything" - I'm telling you he's doing better than any one else we've seen on the job in several area.

i can read and i read you say you would still be happy with this withdrawal even if it was 3x worse, which tells me that you just go in with the initial idea that withdrawing is always good regardless of the consequences which in turn blinds you to the details of a withdrawal that is handled well vs one that is completely mismanaged. That's mediocrity in its essence and it perfectly encapsulates the ideological rot that has crippled the Democratic party for decades.

Quote:

No this is really a national tragedy.

i mean yeah.. for afghanistan it is lol

The Batlord · 09-05-2021, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

you make it sound like the medias job is to educate or even to give us the correct political takes

Their job is to sell papers, sell clicks, sell headlines. That's the way it's always been. When people are falling from planes trying to escape that's just a way juicer story than some sorta somber reflection on imperialism.

I understand why you say they "implicitly support hegemony" but at the same time they will spout whatever is popular at the time when it suits them regardless of any hypocrisy. Nobody is going to "hold them to task" for that. They would put pressure on Trump to explain why he hasn't pulled out more troops, for example. We sat here and watched them do so during the election. They aren't afraid to take on an "anti war" stance when it suits them.

But if they turned a blind eye to what's happening just because in principal they agree with the vague notion that withdrawing is good, that would neither help them sell papers nor would it be particularly good journalism. People are dumb but they aren't so dumb that they can't see what's happening and realize there's something ****ed here.

You don't need to be a master chef to know when a chef over cooks your steak. The chef can always rebuke you with the response "well you said you wanted steak. Now you complain when i give you steak." Which is technically true but doesn't change the fact that you burned my ****in steak bro.

But in the context of the full conflict or imperialist venture this makes perfect sense. We didn't put any great physical or mental effort into setting up a functioning state that could survive without our direct military or economic intervention, and any coverage that doesn't take that kind holistic view of the current situation is going to be less than useless.

And sure they care about money but so does Fox News, and that doesn't stop them from functioning with an ideology.

~~jwb~~ · 09-05-2021, 04:27 PM

They are functioning with an ideology, fox news just does it more effectively/overtly and always has. But they are definitely treating Biden with more deference than they would have if this was Trump in charge while this happened.

And you still don't seem to realize that the failure of 20 years of imperialism is not what caused them to botch the withdrawal. That is very much on the most recent administration. We knew implicitly that the afghan government would ultimately not stand against the Taliban after we left it's just a matter of time frame. They treated it as if we had 6 months to work with, not 2 weeks. That's a failure of intelligence, logistics, and planning. That's a much more recent failure than the 20 year failure to "build a nation" which we all have known for some time now was not even remotely successful.

The Batlord · 09-05-2021, 07:46 PM

Why is that not why the most recent administration botched the withdrawal? How do you succeed in a withdrawal when the nation building failed? I realize that we're going around in circles but how the **** does ending a failed imperialist venture come off without a hitch?

~~jwb~~ · 09-05-2021, 09:23 PM

Say if you don't have the troops, logistics etc to secure the evacuation that's not just cause you did a bad job nation building, it's also cause you did a bad job planning said evacuation. It's not like I'm saying Biden is solely responsible for the fact the Taliban is in power. You could even say even with great planning and execution you would expect there to be some level of chaos and bumps in the road etc. It's really just a matter of degree.

If the Taliban simply regained control that's not much of a headline. To do it in two weeks while the strongest military in the world is being frantically chased out and those who assisted it being left to die on live TV.. yeah that's not exactly a success story my friend. If you think that is just inevitable whenever you leave afghanistan after 20 years we disagree and frankly i don't think there's anything that can be said to sway you.

The Batlord · 09-06-2021, 04:55 AM

Let's say we did pump in enough troops for a smooth withdrawal from Kabul airport. How does that stop the rest of the country from falling overnight? You sound like you're ignoring basic reality to sneer at supposed weakness.

Guybrush · 09-06-2021, 05:28 AM

I really wish there had been more done to protect afghans who were on the side of the US/NATO forces, not just by the US of course but by the whole alliance. These guys now risk or are being subjected to prosecution, execution and torture.

I assume the discussions are going in the US and I don't really know what's being said, but it does seem a pity that so much military equipment is now in the hands of taliban. I'm not saying it could've easily been prevented, but it's rough.

~~jwb~~ · 09-06-2021, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Let's say we did pump in enough troops for a smooth withdrawal from Kabul airport. How does that stop the rest of the country from falling overnight? You sound like you're ignoring basic reality to sneer at supposed weakness.

uh well when you immediately pull back any air support etc that also will contribute to the rate at which the enemy can advance. There are any number of contributing factors to how chaotic or bloody a withdrawal is. And if your only point is long term the govt wasnt sustainable then we don't disagree. But the Taliban out maneuvered not only the ANA but the US military as well. I don't have to invent any weakness to sneer at it is plain as day to the rest of the world exactly how embarrassing this whole ordeal was for the US. Sure the preceding 20 years contributes to that but it didn't end there unfortunately.

The intelligence was quite clearly flawed as Biden seemed to be under the impression we had much more time to work with and if you think he secretly knew it would fall over night that's actually worse since that would mean he not only lied to the public and our allies on the ground but that he failure to properly prepare for that reality despite having the intelligence necessary to do so.

The fact that after the initial blunder they stepped up the evacuation efforts and were more successful than previously only leads additional credence to the idea that they were initually ill prepared.

09-06-2021, 05:28 AM	#9429 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	I really wish there had been more done to protect afghans who were on the side of the US/NATO forces, not just by the US of course but by the whole alliance. These guys now risk or are being subjected to prosecution, execution and torture. I assume the discussions are going in the US and I don't really know what's being said, but it does seem a pity that so much military equipment is now in the hands of taliban. I'm not saying it could've easily been prevented, but it's rough. __________________ Something Completely Different

09-04-2021, 09:52 PM	#9421 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	How would ones takes not be coloured by their politics? What a meaningless accusation. And the fact that you would accept anything as long as we get out is just what i mean by mediocrity. Really says it all. I believe you when you say you're amazed at how well he's doing and i hope you believe me when i say I'm amazed at how low tire standards are.

09-05-2021, 04:27 PM	#9425 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	They are functioning with an ideology, fox news just does it more effectively/overtly and always has. But they are definitely treating Biden with more deference than they would have if this was Trump in charge while this happened. And you still don't seem to realize that the failure of 20 years of imperialism is not what caused them to botch the withdrawal. That is very much on the most recent administration. We knew implicitly that the afghan government would ultimately not stand against the Taliban after we left it's just a matter of time frame. They treated it as if we had 6 months to work with, not 2 weeks. That's a failure of intelligence, logistics, and planning. That's a much more recent failure than the 20 year failure to "build a nation" which we all have known for some time now was not even remotely successful.

09-05-2021, 09:23 PM	#9427 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	Say if you don't have the troops, logistics etc to secure the evacuation that's not just cause you did a bad job nation building, it's also cause you did a bad job planning said evacuation. It's not like I'm saying Biden is solely responsible for the fact the Taliban is in power. You could even say even with great planning and execution you would expect there to be some level of chaos and bumps in the road etc. It's really just a matter of degree. If the Taliban simply regained control that's not much of a headline. To do it in two weeks while the strongest military in the world is being frantically chased out and those who assisted it being left to die on live TV.. yeah that's not exactly a success story my friend. If you think that is just inevitable whenever you leave afghanistan after 20 years we disagree and frankly i don't think there's anything that can be said to sway you.