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Old 04-05-2021, 07:18 PM   #9231 (permalink)
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anyone can go through your post history to see what I'm talking about
I distinctly remember calling you a Strawmanning Nutria last year. That was great.
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Old 04-06-2021, 12:16 AM   #9232 (permalink)
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Sour grapes much?



There will never be a true class conscious "awakening" because the vast majority of people can't imagine a future that isn't capitalist. The whole "end of history" spiel. Hegel touches upon it and Fisher does pretty well with the subject too.
to me the marxist idea that the conditions of capitalism will inevitably lead to class consciousness which leads to revolution is equally naive as assuming technology will free us from inequality

It's like yes obviously without some sort of catastrophe technological progress will probably continue but I see no indication that it is going to flatten the social hierarchy. If anything it is just as likely to be weaponized to magnify said class distinctions.

And all of that is of course ignoring the many possible catastrophes which can cause the system to crumble and society to regress instead of continuing to progress... Ie why I find the idea of the inevitability of progress so cute. It's like what's that old saying by Isaac newton? What goes up will just continue to go up forever and nothing can bring it back down again. That's the saying, isn't it??
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Old 04-06-2021, 10:44 PM   #9233 (permalink)
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It's unclear to me how the worker co-ops that are being championed by the socialist left won't devolve into trade guilds as you have in euro nations that act like a cabal. I'm from a pro-union state and if you want to get into the, say, sprinkler fitters union you basically need to know a guy.

I assume we're supposed to like this more because they work with their hands rather than go to B school and own yachts, but neither is going to produce a healthy economy.

All the grand ideas I hear from other people don't seem to be able to supersede what a 21st Century New Deal set of policies would lead to. I.e. The New Deal without the horribly racial and segregationist policies we had the last time.
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Old 04-06-2021, 11:49 PM   #9234 (permalink)
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It's unclear to me how the worker co-ops that are being championed by the socialist left won't devolve into trade guilds as you have in euro nations that act like a cabal. I'm from a pro-union state and if you want to get into the, say, sprinkler fitters union you basically need to know a guy.

I assume we're supposed to like this more because they work with their hands rather than go to B school and own yachts, but neither is going to produce a healthy economy.

All the grand ideas I hear from other people don't seem to be able to supersede what a 21st Century New Deal set of policies would lead to. I.e. The New Deal without the horribly racial and segregationist policies we had the last time.
What the **** are you talking about with cabals? Are you describing bad things? I mean you just threw around "cabal" like it was supposed to describe a central American Republic we'd overthrown with fascist death squads but didn't even bother with specifics.
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Old 04-07-2021, 01:32 AM   #9235 (permalink)
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in the Manifesto Marx uses poetic revolutionary language to describe a situation where peasants suddenly throw down their shovels...and that's the prevailing image

however it's important to remember that The Manifesto is a call to arms, not an academic writing

he would outline in his other works that he believed the breakdown of Capitalism would be a slow process where it succumbed to its own internal contradictions just like the systems that predated it
the manifesto was written on the eve of impending revolution in Europe. Those revolutions were just unsuccessful. It seems pretty plausible to me that maybe Marx was more optimistic about the revolutionary prophesy early on and maybe became a bit more reserved and realistic later in life after life forced him to swallow some bitter truths.

Either way.. What contradictions are you referring to specifically?
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Old 04-07-2021, 01:38 AM   #9236 (permalink)
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What the **** are you talking about with cabals? Are you describing bad things? I mean you just threw around "cabal" like it was supposed to describe a central American Republic we'd overthrown with fascist death squads but didn't even bother with specifics.
it sounds to me like he's talking about cabal in the sense of a group of people that essentially gain an unjustified stranglehold on a particular market... Through unionizing.

But honestly I don't see the connection to co ops there. Unions basically exist as a negotiating tactic between owners and workers... If you're dealing with a co ops where the workers collectively own the business why would they need to unionize???
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Old 04-07-2021, 07:20 AM   #9237 (permalink)
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Democrat + anti-union = Hitler
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There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 04-07-2021, 02:37 PM   #9238 (permalink)
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we are a mixed economy
No ****, but not mixed enough. IDK if there even is an economy that isn't mixed to some extent.
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:30 PM   #9239 (permalink)
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it sounds to me like he's talking about cabal in the sense of a group of people that essentially gain an unjustified stranglehold on a particular market... Through unionizing.

But honestly I don't see the connection to co ops there. Unions basically exist as a negotiating tactic between owners and workers... If you're dealing with a co ops where the workers collectively own the business why would they need to unionize???
I think I'm just arguing from a personal grievance. In almost any instance, I see a highly selective elitist group (which is what I meant by cabal) as hand-selecting who gets in and who doesn't. In a co-op, the employees vote, but as I recall that isn't on who is hired (maybe I'm wrong but that wouldn't add up). To that end, the game still gets rigged in favor of the graft.

After years of working in the non-profit sector, I think I'm just wildly bitter to the group-think that exists in certain industries.
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Old 04-07-2021, 10:31 PM   #9240 (permalink)
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JWB for president!
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