Political Discussions for "Adults"

~~jwb~~ · 09-28-2020, 09:16 PM

Essentially the premise I challenged... That the idea of nobody using force in the absence of a monopoly of force by the state is remotely plausible.

OccultHawk · 09-28-2020, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

Essentially the premise I challenged... That the idea of nobody using force in the absence of a monopoly of force by the state is remotely plausible.

I felt like a sufficiently conceded that point.

The idea of creating a new taboo or arguing it doesn’t matter what you believe or support seemed indicative enough that I see that.

What I don’t concede is that my political goals being wildly unrealistic should alter them.

I think it may be even more worthwhile to hope for the impossible.

Medicare for All isn’t going to happen. Neither is a peaceful anarchist utopia.

0=0

~~jwb~~ · 09-28-2020, 09:46 PM

Except one can happen, since it literally has happened, and the other has never happened and would defy all the historical evidence so far if it were to somehow happen

You keep trying to conflate things that currently don't seem within reach in the specific politics of America with something that just fundamentally doesn't make sense

There's no doubt universal healthcare works, and as stunted as our political system is it passed Medicare, Medicaid, social security, ACA, etc. If there was enough political force behind universal healthcare it would happen.

So the job of those who support it is to keep making the argument and hope the political force comes eventually. Where as there is no course of action that brings us closer to a state of things where nobody uses force unless that in itself is a feasible goal. My position is that it's not. If it is, then make the argument. If not then stop comparing it to something that is completely feasible.

OccultHawk · 09-28-2020, 10:29 PM

I believe the Pueblo Indians lived for about 200 years in a completely peaceful non-hierarchical society that consisted of about 200 or so people before the Aztecs came and murdered them all. I got that from a junior high history text from the 70’s. Whether or not it was really like that or if the author was just some dude like me pulling **** half out of his ass I can’t really honestly say. Confirmation bias. I like the story so...

I think an anarchist utopia is possible. Step one is making anything hierarchical taboo af. I’m talking about if someone at work tells you to do something you kill him. Abolish money.

I don’t think it’s an undefeatable force of nature. I think we can alter who we are as a species through a cultural shift that induces evolutionary biological change that eliminates competition completely. I think science could play a role.

I don’t think it will happen but I don’t think America will ever have universal healthcare. I only equate the two because two things that don’t happen are equal as non-existent entities.

I can be swimming in ten feet of water or ten thousand feet of water. If my feet can’t reach the ground both situations are equally perilous. At this age I couldn’t dunk a basketball any easier than I could jump over the moon. Out of reach is out of reach.

~~jwb~~ · 09-28-2020, 10:54 PM

I'm not familiar with the Indians in question but it sounds like they were just living in isolation till they made contact with a more powerful civilization that crushed them. That serves my point more than yours, since I'm talking about the civilized world not some remote tribe.

Hunter gatherer tribes are famously non hierarchical.... They're also always small. About 200 people or so like you said. Cause they function on a familial and interpersonal level... Since there are no institutions to mediate the relationships or interactions of different members of said society. This is a model that does not scale well. There's a reason every tribe is small, every commune is small. Anarchism has always been possible on the micro scale.

The appeal to changing biology is vague enough to be meaningless. Unless you can suggest which way you would like to change it.

And you can keep trying to equivocate but universal healthcare is far from impossible. If we were debating in the 1840s you'd be insisting that abolishing chattel slavery was similarly impossible.

OccultHawk · 09-28-2020, 11:04 PM

ok

PM me when I don’t have to pay to see a doctor then

And be sure to tell the blacks that they’re free. They’ll be glad to hear it I’m sure

Neapolitan · 09-28-2020, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

I'm not familiar with the Indians in question but it sounds like they were just living in isolation till they made contact with a more powerful civilization that crushed them.

I thought cause you're Jewish and whatnot you would be excited to know that the copper used in the Temple in Jerusalem came from the new world, mined by a race of giant Indians. Now whether the Jews directly dealt with the giant Indians or they obtain the copper through a succession of trades I really don't know. But the point is that they weren't so very isolated.

OccultHawk · 09-28-2020, 11:44 PM

Quote:

the "libertarian" argument is stupid because taxes aren't theft, property is

church

OccultHawk · 09-29-2020, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

the only argument for property is Labor Theory of Value, but then American libertarians don't believe in it

Maybe. But ant’s right, we need to get robots to do like 99% of it and most of the **** we’re doing just needs to stop. Stop cleaning hurricane debris for example. It’s fine where it landed.

OccultHawk · 09-29-2020, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

for example, why do you bother with Freak Fighter Lamp Lighter if not to do the world a great public good?

I was called upon by the muses for greatness.

09-28-2020, 10:29 PM	#8444 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,006	I believe the Pueblo Indians lived for about 200 years in a completely peaceful non-hierarchical society that consisted of about 200 or so people before the Aztecs came and murdered them all. I got that from a junior high history text from the 70’s. Whether or not it was really like that or if the author was just some dude like me pulling **** half out of his ass I can’t really honestly say. Confirmation bias. I like the story so... I think an anarchist utopia is possible. Step one is making anything hierarchical taboo af. I’m talking about if someone at work tells you to do something you kill him. Abolish money. I don’t think it’s an undefeatable force of nature. I think we can alter who we are as a species through a cultural shift that induces evolutionary biological change that eliminates competition completely. I think science could play a role. I don’t think it will happen but I don’t think America will ever have universal healthcare. I only equate the two because two things that don’t happen are equal as non-existent entities. I can be swimming in ten feet of water or ten thousand feet of water. If my feet can’t reach the ground both situations are equally perilous. At this age I couldn’t dunk a basketball any easier than I could jump over the moon. Out of reach is out of reach. __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

09-28-2020, 11:04 PM	#8446 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,006	ok PM me when I don’t have to pay to see a doctor then And be sure to tell the blacks that they’re free. They’ll be glad to hear it I’m sure __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

09-28-2020, 09:16 PM	#8441 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	Essentially the premise I challenged... That the idea of nobody using force in the absence of a monopoly of force by the state is remotely plausible.

09-28-2020, 09:46 PM	#8443 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	Except one can happen, since it literally has happened, and the other has never happened and would defy all the historical evidence so far if it were to somehow happen You keep trying to conflate things that currently don't seem within reach in the specific politics of America with something that just fundamentally doesn't make sense There's no doubt universal healthcare works, and as stunted as our political system is it passed Medicare, Medicaid, social security, ACA, etc. If there was enough political force behind universal healthcare it would happen. So the job of those who support it is to keep making the argument and hope the political force comes eventually. Where as there is no course of action that brings us closer to a state of things where nobody uses force unless that in itself is a feasible goal. My position is that it's not. If it is, then make the argument. If not then stop comparing it to something that is completely feasible.

09-28-2020, 10:54 PM	#8445 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	I'm not familiar with the Indians in question but it sounds like they were just living in isolation till they made contact with a more powerful civilization that crushed them. That serves my point more than yours, since I'm talking about the civilized world not some remote tribe. Hunter gatherer tribes are famously non hierarchical.... They're also always small. About 200 people or so like you said. Cause they function on a familial and interpersonal level... Since there are no institutions to mediate the relationships or interactions of different members of said society. This is a model that does not scale well. There's a reason every tribe is small, every commune is small. Anarchism has always been possible on the micro scale. The appeal to changing biology is vague enough to be meaningless. Unless you can suggest which way you would like to change it. And you can keep trying to equivocate but universal healthcare is far from impossible. If we were debating in the 1840s you'd be insisting that abolishing chattel slavery was similarly impossible.